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Elon isn't taking their market share. He's banking on the future and stealing their market cap. What people are missing is that every car company is a fast foll

by orky56 6y ago

Elon isn't taking their market share. He's banking on the future and stealing their market cap. What people are missing is that every car company is a fast follower and Elon's head start and subsequent lead is disappearing as Porsche (VW) and others are stealing the limelight and performance ranks. Similar to Apple, Elon is thinking in terms of profitability and long-term strategy and wants to focus on taking that over all else.

ericd 6y ago
How is Porsche stealing the limelight? With the Taycan? Which starts at >$100k, with half the range and slower 0-60 numbers than a lumbering $70k base model Model S? (I know they're not direct competitors, I expect the Porsche to have significantly better fit/finish and handling, and the Taycan doesn't really sit 5 comfortably). At the top end, it looks a bit better, but then it's priced in the range of the 2021 Roadster, which seems likely to be a monster. VW's offerings are obviously more affordable, but they don't seem to offer the same range per buck that Tesla does?
- clouddrover 6y ago
  > How is Porsche stealing the limelight? With consistently better performance. The Taycan is a sports car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcKz1OGZ7_I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcKz1OGZ7_I > but they don't seem to offer the same range per buck that Tesla does? The VW ID.3 has similar WLTP range figures to the Tesla Model 3 and the ID.3 is cheaper.
  - ericd 6y ago
    Yep, the Model S is a large family sedan, that's why it's a bit absurd for it to win. My point was that a sports car from Porsche should be winning, and not by a little. That video is comparing the Turbo S (the $185k version of the Taycan) to the $92k version of the Model S. The $140k version is significantly faster, let alone the 2021 Roadster. The ID.3 seems to have a stated range of ~200 miles?
    - clouddrover 6y ago
      Performance is more than just drag racing. The Taycan out performs the Model S on track as well. It's just a better car and, yes, that costs money. > The ID.3 seems to have a stated range of ~200 miles? There are 3 usable battery sizes for 3 different range figures: 48kWh (205 miles WLTP), 58kWh (261 miles), and 77kWh (342 miles).
      - ericd 6y ago
        Alright, how much range do you get in an ID.3 that’s the same price as the base Model 3? EDIT: Also, WLTP vs. EPA range isn't apples to apples, EPA is something like 10-20% more conservative, and that's what Tesla quotes, at least on their US site. I can't seem to find EPA range results for ID.3, maybe because it's not available in the US yet? And to be clear, I'm really happy that VW appears to be pushing into EVs in a bigger way than most of the big car companies. I wish they all would. But I think they're a ways from taking the limelight.
        clouddrover 6y ago
        > Alright, how much range do you get in an ID.3 that’s the same price as the base Model 3? 340 miles. > that's what Tesla quotes, at least on their US site Tesla quotes WLTP ranges on their European sites. > But I think they're a ways from taking the limelight. Renault and VW BEVs outsell Tesla in Europe. The limelight has nothing to do with it. It's just business.
        ericd 6y ago
        Ah nice, sounds like they're doing quite well, then! Looks like Model 3s are significantly more expensive in Europe than in the US (the base model in France is 51k Euros/61k USD vs $38k USD in the US, before tax rebates, which can knock off a significant chunk of it). Which is also part of why the quoted prices for the ID.3 seem so expensive to us in the US (49k Euros/59k USD for the 340 mile version in France). That's a lot to pay for either of those cars.
      - 6y ago
- orky56 6y ago
  The allure of Tesla is that their DNA and proposed vision is all-electric performance without compromise. They've forgone the luxury market and gone all-in with performance. The 3, Y, and even X rely on the nostalgia of the Roadster and soon the S. Despite the fanfare of the S, Tesla hasn't been able to convince the average consumer with multiple cars to own multiple Teslas nor the PR firm that their other models deserve to be on the Top 10s, etc. I'm never going to bet against Tesla. I've seen my $500 TSLA purchase go up 15,000% to $75k in just a few years. That being said there's a lot more work to be done for Elon to get to the top and stay there.
  - lazyjones 6y ago
    Tesla isn't about performance, that's just a by-product of making EV suitable for everyday use. Teslas are about adequate range (400+ Km, 250+ miles), fast charging and a charging network that enables long-distance journeys, as well as getting as close to self-driving as possible. That's why 1 million or so people chose a Tesla over other EV and gasoline cars.
    - edmundsauto 6y ago
      How do you know the reasons why someone chose a Tesla?
      - lazyjones 6y ago
        I own one myself and talk to other owners occasionally. People get chatty during those Supercharger breaks.
        edmundsauto 6y ago
        Sorry if this sounds combative, but how can you extrapolate a couple of dozen casual conversations to a complex decision from over a million people?
lazyjones 6y ago
> What people are missing is that every car company is a fast follower I don't know if it can be considered "fast" when Daimler copies the Model S vertical touchscreen after 8 years and puts it in the S class. They seem to be slow followers in an industry that wasn't moving fast for decades and has now picked up a pace.

by orky56 6y ago

ericd 6y ago

How is Porsche stealing the limelight? With the Taycan? Which starts at >$100k, with half the range and slower 0-60 numbers than a lumbering $70k base model Model S? (I know they're not direct competitors, I expect the Porsche to have significantly better fit/finish and handling, and the Taycan doesn't really sit 5 comfortably). At the top end, it looks a bit better, but then it's priced in the range of the 2021 Roadster, which seems likely to be a monster. VW's offerings are obviously more affordable, but they don't seem to offer the same range per buck that Tesla does?

clouddrover 6y ago
> How is Porsche stealing the limelight? With consistently better performance. The Taycan is a sports car: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcKz1OGZ7_I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcKz1OGZ7_I > but they don't seem to offer the same range per buck that Tesla does? The VW ID.3 has similar WLTP range figures to the Tesla Model 3 and the ID.3 is cheaper.
- ericd 6y ago
  Yep, the Model S is a large family sedan, that's why it's a bit absurd for it to win. My point was that a sports car from Porsche should be winning, and not by a little. That video is comparing the Turbo S (the $185k version of the Taycan) to the $92k version of the Model S. The $140k version is significantly faster, let alone the 2021 Roadster. The ID.3 seems to have a stated range of ~200 miles?
  - clouddrover 6y ago
    Performance is more than just drag racing. The Taycan out performs the Model S on track as well. It's just a better car and, yes, that costs money. > The ID.3 seems to have a stated range of ~200 miles? There are 3 usable battery sizes for 3 different range figures: 48kWh (205 miles WLTP), 58kWh (261 miles), and 77kWh (342 miles).
    - ericd 6y ago
      Alright, how much range do you get in an ID.3 that’s the same price as the base Model 3? EDIT: Also, WLTP vs. EPA range isn't apples to apples, EPA is something like 10-20% more conservative, and that's what Tesla quotes, at least on their US site. I can't seem to find EPA range results for ID.3, maybe because it's not available in the US yet? And to be clear, I'm really happy that VW appears to be pushing into EVs in a bigger way than most of the big car companies. I wish they all would. But I think they're a ways from taking the limelight.
      - clouddrover 6y ago
        > Alright, how much range do you get in an ID.3 that’s the same price as the base Model 3? 340 miles. > that's what Tesla quotes, at least on their US site Tesla quotes WLTP ranges on their European sites. > But I think they're a ways from taking the limelight. Renault and VW BEVs outsell Tesla in Europe. The limelight has nothing to do with it. It's just business.
        ericd 6y ago
        Ah nice, sounds like they're doing quite well, then! Looks like Model 3s are significantly more expensive in Europe than in the US (the base model in France is 51k Euros/61k USD vs $38k USD in the US, before tax rebates, which can knock off a significant chunk of it). Which is also part of why the quoted prices for the ID.3 seem so expensive to us in the US (49k Euros/59k USD for the 340 mile version in France). That's a lot to pay for either of those cars.
    - 6y ago
orky56 6y ago
The allure of Tesla is that their DNA and proposed vision is all-electric performance without compromise. They've forgone the luxury market and gone all-in with performance. The 3, Y, and even X rely on the nostalgia of the Roadster and soon the S. Despite the fanfare of the S, Tesla hasn't been able to convince the average consumer with multiple cars to own multiple Teslas nor the PR firm that their other models deserve to be on the Top 10s, etc. I'm never going to bet against Tesla. I've seen my $500 TSLA purchase go up 15,000% to $75k in just a few years. That being said there's a lot more work to be done for Elon to get to the top and stay there.
- lazyjones 6y ago
  Tesla isn't about performance, that's just a by-product of making EV suitable for everyday use. Teslas are about adequate range (400+ Km, 250+ miles), fast charging and a charging network that enables long-distance journeys, as well as getting as close to self-driving as possible. That's why 1 million or so people chose a Tesla over other EV and gasoline cars.
  - edmundsauto 6y ago
    How do you know the reasons why someone chose a Tesla?
    - lazyjones 6y ago
      I own one myself and talk to other owners occasionally. People get chatty during those Supercharger breaks.
      - edmundsauto 6y ago
        Sorry if this sounds combative, but how can you extrapolate a couple of dozen casual conversations to a complex decision from over a million people?

lazyjones 6y ago

> What people are missing is that every car company is a fast follower I don't know if it can be considered "fast" when Daimler copies the Model S vertical touchscreen after 8 years and puts it in the S class. They seem to be slow followers in an industry that wasn't moving fast for decades and has now picked up a pace.