6 ms·

Not offended. In fact your response like this is exactly what I was asking for in my comment. You are right, the "at least hear me out" argument is often used

by idrios 6y ago

Not offended. In fact your response like this is exactly what I was asking for in my comment. You are right, the "at least hear me out" argument is often used as defense to say something very questionable. The reason I phrased it that way though is because I am very close to one person who is as far right leaning as you could expect any reasonable person to be, and very close to another who is as far left as possible. I'm kind of forced to be in the middle if I want to maintain both of these relationships. So to myself, I was using those 2 people as stand-ins for everyone else who might share their views. Both are very smart, both have very strong opinions that have been reached through a longstanding evolution of very small differences core values, and both are so deeply vested in their views that they wouldn't even be able to talk to each other. So my comment was an appeal to anyone who feels that way about the other side, because I see no other way to fix the extreme polarization of ideals in the US.

adamsea 6y ago
What do you yourself believe?
- idrios 6y ago
  Personally, much more left leaning than right. My biggest concern about the future right now is the economy. I think we've made great progress in the last several decades breaking glass ceilings for women and minorities in the workforce and made some fantastic, huge technological breakthroughs. But I think a side effect of this is fewer jobs (from automation) and increased competition for those jobs. So I lean left on this issue -- I think we need an increase to minimum wage or a basic income or anything that gives more support for the unemployed. Worst case in my mind, they take advantage of this system and remove themselves from the labor pool making job applicants more competitive. I'll also add, with a bit of incredulity, that my conservative friend doesn't see a gap between wealthy and poor as an issue. But I'm not 100% left. I'm not for socialized healthcare -- I worry about doctor visits becoming like the DMV (though even that would be an improvement to what we have now) and I worry about hospitals charging whatever they can because it's on the government's paycheck (even if that is an improvement to them doing it because it's on the insurer's paycheck) -- because I think there are better fixes to healthcare that don't require it being provided by the government. On a more meta-level, I think there are far more political ideologies than just left and right, that progressive democrats have forced themselves to align with establishment democrats, as how Christian conservatives have forced themselves to align with anti-establishment conservatives (there might be a better label for it). So in that light it's ridiculous to me how, say, a progressive democrat can denounce a Christian conservative while supporting an establishment democrat when they have nearly as little in common with both. Also, thank you for asking me this outright. Nobody on the internet ever has. What do you believe?
  - adamsea 6y ago
    Thank you for such an honest and thoughtful response, and forgive my delay. We probably agree on a lot of politics. I do believe in a national healthcare system (socialized medicine?), because our current approach is so unjust, and because I fundamentally believe that a democratic government is the tool that people use to collectively better themselves. I also believe in free higher education for the same reason. I think both would pay for themselves. That said, I know actually doing those things (especially healthcare) in the U.S. would be quite tricky and that the practical implementation of something matters as much as what should ideally be. In general I believe in intellectual honesty, integrity in public services, treating everyone with the same level of respect, and that people generally do better when they work together. Which is why I think the Trump Administration and the current crop of Republicans enabling him (note that I'm not saying all!) are such pieces of shit. I didn’t used to be so crude but at some point you have to make clear what’s not acceptable in the kind of society I believe in. I'm also a huge fan of the arts, the liberal arts, and so a big believer in freedom of expression. So I can be a bit of a political idealist. At the same time I've read a lot of history and think I understand that the world is a rough place and that people in power often have to make shitty choices between bad and worse. TBH I think one of the biggest positive changes, both in this country and in the world, could be in the field of mental health. Consider how revolutionary modern medicine has been in terms of the physical health of the individual and all the positive good and realization of human potential that has come from that. Mental health is (at least in Western science) still a very young field and only beginning to be socially accepted. Also consider just how much damage a troubled individual - especially someone in a position of power - can do. Even just a shitty manager can really fuck up other people's lives. We also have to acknowledge that no one can have good mental health when they have constant economic insecurity, or lack a way to meaningfully contribute to their community/to society. I believe that if we keep fucking over our planet, it's gonna be real shitty for the human race. Pollution plays a big role in mental health as well (nature is actually critical for good mental health, plus pollution causes myriad physical and mental health issues in the population). So I tend to be a pretty strong critic of capitalism as it is today, and how it just makes things like polluting the environment "externalities". I see markets as a financial tool and not inherently good or bad (and definitely not magical!), and, I think regulated capitalism can have it's role, but, the system we see today sucks. The national and global wealth disparity as it exists today is unjust, unethical, and, even if it's legal, criminal. It's shameful that the richest country in the world is so poor (poor civic infrastructure, poor citizens, poor quality of life, etc). That said , while there are so many positive reforms we can make, I don't know what's out there to replace capitalism as a whole. We've yet to see some other sort of economic system really be tried (I don't count the USSR and most 'socialist' countries; tbh most of those governments were fucked up or, undermined by the US). So who knows what a better system is. I do like the United States; what I like about it is that criticizing it is part of our civic duty. Lastly I believe people really don't like to be uncomfortable, or change, or question themselves, which is why we see so much resistance to acknwoledging things like the patriarchy or white supremacy; no one likes to think that maybe their own friends, family, or themselves, have behaved in ways which have been harmful to other people. No one likes to question the unspoken assumptions of their world. Which goes back to my point about mental health. And I think this discomfort with change has been a big part of the terrible response to the pandemic; people would rather stay comfortable with what they know and die, or play a role in the deaths of others, than deal with the discomfort of change. This in part comes from my own perspective from having done a lot of therapy and dealing with mental health issues.
Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
I've flip flopped on issues and can see why people hold many of the problematic beliefs they do. It seems to me that many lack the nuance and human experience to understand different people. It's the mindset of the raging homophobes that get caught with same sex partner(s). If you want to look to see how to deal with that issue in particular then look to media created by the people who've lived these experiences. What's helped me the most is putting myself in uncomfortable situations and finding ways to cope. Don't like LGBTQIA+? Go to a gay bar, talk to the people there. Maybe find a way to get Fox to air humanizing stories about MPoCs, LGBTQIA+, abortion, addicts, and poor people. It's harder to be close minded in typically blue urban areas where you'll regularly be confronted with norm defying people from all classes, colors, religions, and orientations. So the best way would be to find ways to bring these groups to the same haunts without them even knowing they're being funneled.

by idrios 6y ago

adamsea 6y ago

What do you yourself believe?

idrios 6y ago
Personally, much more left leaning than right. My biggest concern about the future right now is the economy. I think we've made great progress in the last several decades breaking glass ceilings for women and minorities in the workforce and made some fantastic, huge technological breakthroughs. But I think a side effect of this is fewer jobs (from automation) and increased competition for those jobs. So I lean left on this issue -- I think we need an increase to minimum wage or a basic income or anything that gives more support for the unemployed. Worst case in my mind, they take advantage of this system and remove themselves from the labor pool making job applicants more competitive. I'll also add, with a bit of incredulity, that my conservative friend doesn't see a gap between wealthy and poor as an issue. But I'm not 100% left. I'm not for socialized healthcare -- I worry about doctor visits becoming like the DMV (though even that would be an improvement to what we have now) and I worry about hospitals charging whatever they can because it's on the government's paycheck (even if that is an improvement to them doing it because it's on the insurer's paycheck) -- because I think there are better fixes to healthcare that don't require it being provided by the government. On a more meta-level, I think there are far more political ideologies than just left and right, that progressive democrats have forced themselves to align with establishment democrats, as how Christian conservatives have forced themselves to align with anti-establishment conservatives (there might be a better label for it). So in that light it's ridiculous to me how, say, a progressive democrat can denounce a Christian conservative while supporting an establishment democrat when they have nearly as little in common with both. Also, thank you for asking me this outright. Nobody on the internet ever has. What do you believe?
- adamsea 6y ago
  Thank you for such an honest and thoughtful response, and forgive my delay. We probably agree on a lot of politics. I do believe in a national healthcare system (socialized medicine?), because our current approach is so unjust, and because I fundamentally believe that a democratic government is the tool that people use to collectively better themselves. I also believe in free higher education for the same reason. I think both would pay for themselves. That said, I know actually doing those things (especially healthcare) in the U.S. would be quite tricky and that the practical implementation of something matters as much as what should ideally be. In general I believe in intellectual honesty, integrity in public services, treating everyone with the same level of respect, and that people generally do better when they work together. Which is why I think the Trump Administration and the current crop of Republicans enabling him (note that I'm not saying all!) are such pieces of shit. I didn’t used to be so crude but at some point you have to make clear what’s not acceptable in the kind of society I believe in. I'm also a huge fan of the arts, the liberal arts, and so a big believer in freedom of expression. So I can be a bit of a political idealist. At the same time I've read a lot of history and think I understand that the world is a rough place and that people in power often have to make shitty choices between bad and worse. TBH I think one of the biggest positive changes, both in this country and in the world, could be in the field of mental health. Consider how revolutionary modern medicine has been in terms of the physical health of the individual and all the positive good and realization of human potential that has come from that. Mental health is (at least in Western science) still a very young field and only beginning to be socially accepted. Also consider just how much damage a troubled individual - especially someone in a position of power - can do. Even just a shitty manager can really fuck up other people's lives. We also have to acknowledge that no one can have good mental health when they have constant economic insecurity, or lack a way to meaningfully contribute to their community/to society. I believe that if we keep fucking over our planet, it's gonna be real shitty for the human race. Pollution plays a big role in mental health as well (nature is actually critical for good mental health, plus pollution causes myriad physical and mental health issues in the population). So I tend to be a pretty strong critic of capitalism as it is today, and how it just makes things like polluting the environment "externalities". I see markets as a financial tool and not inherently good or bad (and definitely not magical!), and, I think regulated capitalism can have it's role, but, the system we see today sucks. The national and global wealth disparity as it exists today is unjust, unethical, and, even if it's legal, criminal. It's shameful that the richest country in the world is so poor (poor civic infrastructure, poor citizens, poor quality of life, etc). That said , while there are so many positive reforms we can make, I don't know what's out there to replace capitalism as a whole. We've yet to see some other sort of economic system really be tried (I don't count the USSR and most 'socialist' countries; tbh most of those governments were fucked up or, undermined by the US). So who knows what a better system is. I do like the United States; what I like about it is that criticizing it is part of our civic duty. Lastly I believe people really don't like to be uncomfortable, or change, or question themselves, which is why we see so much resistance to acknwoledging things like the patriarchy or white supremacy; no one likes to think that maybe their own friends, family, or themselves, have behaved in ways which have been harmful to other people. No one likes to question the unspoken assumptions of their world. Which goes back to my point about mental health. And I think this discomfort with change has been a big part of the terrible response to the pandemic; people would rather stay comfortable with what they know and die, or play a role in the deaths of others, than deal with the discomfort of change. This in part comes from my own perspective from having done a lot of therapy and dealing with mental health issues.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago

I've flip flopped on issues and can see why people hold many of the problematic beliefs they do. It seems to me that many lack the nuance and human experience to understand different people. It's the mindset of the raging homophobes that get caught with same sex partner(s). If you want to look to see how to deal with that issue in particular then look to media created by the people who've lived these experiences. What's helped me the most is putting myself in uncomfortable situations and finding ways to cope. Don't like LGBTQIA+? Go to a gay bar, talk to the people there. Maybe find a way to get Fox to air humanizing stories about MPoCs, LGBTQIA+, abortion, addicts, and poor people. It's harder to be close minded in typically blue urban areas where you'll regularly be confronted with norm defying people from all classes, colors, religions, and orientations. So the best way would be to find ways to bring these groups to the same haunts without them even knowing they're being funneled.