4 ms·

Disappointed you're being downvoted. Everybody seems to have taken an "if you're not with us you're against us" approach. The left appeals to your sense of mora

by idrios 6y ago

Disappointed you're being downvoted. Everybody seems to have taken an "if you're not with us you're against us" approach. The left appeals to your sense of morality ("you're evil if you support this president") and the right appeals to your sense of intelligence ("you're an idiot if you support socialism"). My only issue is that it's become impossible to even talk about your opinions without being given a label. How does anyone grow in this environment?

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
Both seem giddy about abridging individual rights and liberal values. Invite debate, look for commonality and move forward.
throwaway201103 6y ago
People don't seem to want to defend their positions anymore. They want to say what they feel and face no challenge or debate. Even this "key" data scientist won't talk to the media, won't be identified. Sorry then, I don't give his opinion a lot of weight. It's easy to throw stones from inside a safe space.
Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago
>My only issue is that it's become impossible to even talk about your opinions without being given a label. How does anyone grow in this environment? I've heard this argument often. What I'm about to say is not directed at you personally but your argument. Maybe you, general you, are the one who needs to grow. It's possible that your knowledge of the subject is dated, judgement clouded by any number of things, that you underestimate the severity of the problem, that you're conflating a dislike of a person, movement, idea with groups of people, or other things. I say this because most of the time when people make this comment they follow it up or precede it with some very questionable statements. Generally these inappropriate statements are rooted in ignorance of the topic though sometimes your argument is used in bad faith to justify hateful or discriminatory ideals, speech, and action. Again, I'm not suggesting anything against you idrios, merely adding my experience with this argument.
- idrios 6y ago
  Not offended. In fact your response like this is exactly what I was asking for in my comment. You are right, the "at least hear me out" argument is often used as defense to say something very questionable. The reason I phrased it that way though is because I am very close to one person who is as far right leaning as you could expect any reasonable person to be, and very close to another who is as far left as possible. I'm kind of forced to be in the middle if I want to maintain both of these relationships. So to myself, I was using those 2 people as stand-ins for everyone else who might share their views. Both are very smart, both have very strong opinions that have been reached through a longstanding evolution of very small differences core values, and both are so deeply vested in their views that they wouldn't even be able to talk to each other. So my comment was an appeal to anyone who feels that way about the other side, because I see no other way to fix the extreme polarization of ideals in the US.
  - adamsea 6y ago
    What do you yourself believe?
    - idrios 6y ago
      Personally, much more left leaning than right. My biggest concern about the future right now is the economy. I think we've made great progress in the last several decades breaking glass ceilings for women and minorities in the workforce and made some fantastic, huge technological breakthroughs. But I think a side effect of this is fewer jobs (from automation) and increased competition for those jobs. So I lean left on this issue -- I think we need an increase to minimum wage or a basic income or anything that gives more support for the unemployed. Worst case in my mind, they take advantage of this system and remove themselves from the labor pool making job applicants more competitive. I'll also add, with a bit of incredulity, that my conservative friend doesn't see a gap between wealthy and poor as an issue. But I'm not 100% left. I'm not for socialized healthcare -- I worry about doctor visits becoming like the DMV (though even that would be an improvement to what we have now) and I worry about hospitals charging whatever they can because it's on the government's paycheck (even if that is an improvement to them doing it because it's on the insurer's paycheck) -- because I think there are better fixes to healthcare that don't require it being provided by the government. On a more meta-level, I think there are far more political ideologies than just left and right, that progressive democrats have forced themselves to align with establishment democrats, as how Christian conservatives have forced themselves to align with anti-establishment conservatives (there might be a better label for it). So in that light it's ridiculous to me how, say, a progressive democrat can denounce a Christian conservative while supporting an establishment democrat when they have nearly as little in common with both. Also, thank you for asking me this outright. Nobody on the internet ever has. What do you believe?

by idrios 6y ago

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago

Both seem giddy about abridging individual rights and liberal values. Invite debate, look for commonality and move forward.

throwaway201103 6y ago

People don't seem to want to defend their positions anymore. They want to say what they feel and face no challenge or debate. Even this "key" data scientist won't talk to the media, won't be identified. Sorry then, I don't give his opinion a lot of weight. It's easy to throw stones from inside a safe space.

Red_Leaves_Flyy 6y ago

>My only issue is that it's become impossible to even talk about your opinions without being given a label. How does anyone grow in this environment? I've heard this argument often. What I'm about to say is not directed at you personally but your argument. Maybe you, general you, are the one who needs to grow. It's possible that your knowledge of the subject is dated, judgement clouded by any number of things, that you underestimate the severity of the problem, that you're conflating a dislike of a person, movement, idea with groups of people, or other things. I say this because most of the time when people make this comment they follow it up or precede it with some very questionable statements. Generally these inappropriate statements are rooted in ignorance of the topic though sometimes your argument is used in bad faith to justify hateful or discriminatory ideals, speech, and action. Again, I'm not suggesting anything against you idrios, merely adding my experience with this argument.

idrios 6y ago
Not offended. In fact your response like this is exactly what I was asking for in my comment. You are right, the "at least hear me out" argument is often used as defense to say something very questionable. The reason I phrased it that way though is because I am very close to one person who is as far right leaning as you could expect any reasonable person to be, and very close to another who is as far left as possible. I'm kind of forced to be in the middle if I want to maintain both of these relationships. So to myself, I was using those 2 people as stand-ins for everyone else who might share their views. Both are very smart, both have very strong opinions that have been reached through a longstanding evolution of very small differences core values, and both are so deeply vested in their views that they wouldn't even be able to talk to each other. So my comment was an appeal to anyone who feels that way about the other side, because I see no other way to fix the extreme polarization of ideals in the US.
- adamsea 6y ago
  What do you yourself believe?
  - idrios 6y ago
    Personally, much more left leaning than right. My biggest concern about the future right now is the economy. I think we've made great progress in the last several decades breaking glass ceilings for women and minorities in the workforce and made some fantastic, huge technological breakthroughs. But I think a side effect of this is fewer jobs (from automation) and increased competition for those jobs. So I lean left on this issue -- I think we need an increase to minimum wage or a basic income or anything that gives more support for the unemployed. Worst case in my mind, they take advantage of this system and remove themselves from the labor pool making job applicants more competitive. I'll also add, with a bit of incredulity, that my conservative friend doesn't see a gap between wealthy and poor as an issue. But I'm not 100% left. I'm not for socialized healthcare -- I worry about doctor visits becoming like the DMV (though even that would be an improvement to what we have now) and I worry about hospitals charging whatever they can because it's on the government's paycheck (even if that is an improvement to them doing it because it's on the insurer's paycheck) -- because I think there are better fixes to healthcare that don't require it being provided by the government. On a more meta-level, I think there are far more political ideologies than just left and right, that progressive democrats have forced themselves to align with establishment democrats, as how Christian conservatives have forced themselves to align with anti-establishment conservatives (there might be a better label for it). So in that light it's ridiculous to me how, say, a progressive democrat can denounce a Christian conservative while supporting an establishment democrat when they have nearly as little in common with both. Also, thank you for asking me this outright. Nobody on the internet ever has. What do you believe?