5 ms·

You don't have to have kids. I'm 35 years old; my wife and I (10 years together now) revisit this question yearly - neither of us want kids or wanted kids in th

by yboris 6y ago

You don't have to have kids. I'm 35 years old; my wife and I (10 years together now) revisit this question yearly - neither of us want kids or wanted kids in these years. We're most likely never going to have kids (by choice). The way I see it, bringing a sentient being into this mad world needs to have a good personal reason, it shouldn't be the default that you need to find a reasons against.

GloriousKoji 6y ago
I know this is highly subjective but what is a "good personal reason" for having kids?
- yboris 6y ago
  On the moral side, there may be good reasons to be an anti-natalist ("Better Never to Have Been"). I think it depends on the quality of life ahead. If the earth was a utopia, I'd be more interested in having a child. A good personal reason to have a child, I think, is having an intense desire to have a child, and an intense desire to nurture and help your child grow into a good human being. I give at least 10% of my income to cost-effective charities (see GiveWell.org for recommendations; see GivingWhatWeCan.org for a community of others doing the same). I think that's a better use of my money than taking care of one human being. I get more time for myself (no need to take care of my own children). I help in cost-effective ways to help the next generation live a better life; it's a good balance for me. Needless to say, having a child wouldn't conflict with giving to charity, but it's easier.
  - friendlybus 6y ago
    Most people in the past had kids because life sucked. We gained from having extra hands on the farm. More kids were better in a world with a relatively high mortality rate. Your kid doesn't have to live in a utopia to be worth making.
  - tyrust 6y ago
    We've been going through this decision making process, as well. All of your points are good, there was just one I wanted to follow up on. >I think that's a better use of my money than taking care of one human being. I don't think this is necessarily true. Your child(ren) (and their child(ren) and their's, etc.) also have the potential to earn and donate money to effective causes. Those donations might end up greater than the ones you can accomplish in your own lifetime. Of course, "net good to current and future humanity" is only one part of the equation.
    - yboris 6y ago
      Just sounds like passing the buck further. I'm more altruistic than average. Regression to the mean says my kids will be less altruistic. And it would be rude to manipulate them into doing anything. I would surely do my best to instill the values I think are good, but in the end, it would be their individual choice.
      - tyrust 6y ago
        Fair interpretation. As you point out, the installation of your values would, perhaps, push them above the mean. But it's ultimately a dice roll.
programmertote 6y ago
I am with you. I grew up in a below-middle-class family raised by my widowed mom. My dad passed away when I was 12. I have two younger siblings. As I look back on the last ~40 years of my life, it's mostly about struggles sprinkled with brief periods of joy lasting no more than a couple of days at most. Most of the time, I'm studying to get good grades so that I can get scholarships, without which I'd not be able to go to college; helping my widowed mom with her chores (including taking care of younger siblings) because she is occupied with making money to survive; and even now that I'm an adult with a stable income, I spend most of my time working for someone (selling my 8+ hours a day to my employer) while worrying about if I'll have enough money saved by mid-50s when I hope to be able to enjoy life a little more (e.g., going on vacations) with some spare money to spend. All I'm trying to say is that life is a struggle for most people (the poorer family you were born into, the truer that statement becomes). We never have moments of peace because we have things to worry about constantly. I'd never bring another human being into this mess unless I can have a discussion with my future progeny before s/he is conceived (which is, of course, impossible). In other words, unless some ghost/spirit is begging me to let him/her incarnate because s/he see value in this rat race, I'd not make this decision one-sidedly. As a tangential note, I am a strong proponent of euthanasia and hope that one day, it'll be commonly accepted by the society.
- abnercoimbre 6y ago
  I did a sabbatical that's coming to an end, ~10 months long. I turned 29, so I used this time to build a tiny bit of self-sufficiency through side businesses. Still have ways to go but there's finally meaningful revenue coming in -- enough to quit terrible jobs and take sabbaticals, but not enough to quit forever yet. It's so hard. Have you considered this? Building out multiple sources of revenue? Your story resonated with me, and our upbringings have been difficult.

by yboris 6y ago

GloriousKoji 6y ago

I know this is highly subjective but what is a "good personal reason" for having kids?

yboris 6y ago
On the moral side, there may be good reasons to be an anti-natalist ("Better Never to Have Been"). I think it depends on the quality of life ahead. If the earth was a utopia, I'd be more interested in having a child. A good personal reason to have a child, I think, is having an intense desire to have a child, and an intense desire to nurture and help your child grow into a good human being. I give at least 10% of my income to cost-effective charities (see GiveWell.org for recommendations; see GivingWhatWeCan.org for a community of others doing the same). I think that's a better use of my money than taking care of one human being. I get more time for myself (no need to take care of my own children). I help in cost-effective ways to help the next generation live a better life; it's a good balance for me. Needless to say, having a child wouldn't conflict with giving to charity, but it's easier.
- friendlybus 6y ago
  Most people in the past had kids because life sucked. We gained from having extra hands on the farm. More kids were better in a world with a relatively high mortality rate. Your kid doesn't have to live in a utopia to be worth making.
- tyrust 6y ago
  We've been going through this decision making process, as well. All of your points are good, there was just one I wanted to follow up on. >I think that's a better use of my money than taking care of one human being. I don't think this is necessarily true. Your child(ren) (and their child(ren) and their's, etc.) also have the potential to earn and donate money to effective causes. Those donations might end up greater than the ones you can accomplish in your own lifetime. Of course, "net good to current and future humanity" is only one part of the equation.
  - yboris 6y ago
    Just sounds like passing the buck further. I'm more altruistic than average. Regression to the mean says my kids will be less altruistic. And it would be rude to manipulate them into doing anything. I would surely do my best to instill the values I think are good, but in the end, it would be their individual choice.
    - tyrust 6y ago
      Fair interpretation. As you point out, the installation of your values would, perhaps, push them above the mean. But it's ultimately a dice roll.

programmertote 6y ago

I am with you. I grew up in a below-middle-class family raised by my widowed mom. My dad passed away when I was 12. I have two younger siblings. As I look back on the last ~40 years of my life, it's mostly about struggles sprinkled with brief periods of joy lasting no more than a couple of days at most. Most of the time, I'm studying to get good grades so that I can get scholarships, without which I'd not be able to go to college; helping my widowed mom with her chores (including taking care of younger siblings) because she is occupied with making money to survive; and even now that I'm an adult with a stable income, I spend most of my time working for someone (selling my 8+ hours a day to my employer) while worrying about if I'll have enough money saved by mid-50s when I hope to be able to enjoy life a little more (e.g., going on vacations) with some spare money to spend. All I'm trying to say is that life is a struggle for most people (the poorer family you were born into, the truer that statement becomes). We never have moments of peace because we have things to worry about constantly. I'd never bring another human being into this mess unless I can have a discussion with my future progeny before s/he is conceived (which is, of course, impossible). In other words, unless some ghost/spirit is begging me to let him/her incarnate because s/he see value in this rat race, I'd not make this decision one-sidedly. As a tangential note, I am a strong proponent of euthanasia and hope that one day, it'll be commonly accepted by the society.

abnercoimbre 6y ago
I did a sabbatical that's coming to an end, ~10 months long. I turned 29, so I used this time to build a tiny bit of self-sufficiency through side businesses. Still have ways to go but there's finally meaningful revenue coming in -- enough to quit terrible jobs and take sabbaticals, but not enough to quit forever yet. It's so hard. Have you considered this? Building out multiple sources of revenue? Your story resonated with me, and our upbringings have been difficult.