21 ms·

The thing that seems crazy to me is how much time alone increases with age. There are many many reasons for it, but one thing I think is especially sad is how m

The thing that seems crazy to me is how much time alone increases with age. There are many many reasons for it, but one thing I think is especially sad is how much this is a consequence of our built environment. If you live in a village with multiple generations of a family around, it’s much easier for grandparents to be involved day too day in helping with little things in the village, especially keeping an eye on the kids roaming around. This is also true in the more traditional urban neighborhoods with walking-oriented life (safety from cars) and a wide mix of housing types etc. But (to varying degrees) most of the new construction around the world since WW2 has been oriented around driving and separation of land uses, and as a result when you age you end up living in a nice little garden home far removed from any day to day life going on. And once it gets hard for you to drive... then you really end up spending a ton of time alone. I don’t think there’s an easy fix for this, and that makes me sad.

tcbawo 6y ago
As the younger people alive today get older, they are more likely to remain connected with technology and spend more time socially with digital experiences (playing video games with friends, etc.). Hopefully, this will help offset loneliness that might accompany decreased mobility.
- torgian 6y ago
  Unfortunately this is a poor substitute for real physical connection with other people.
  - kenjackson 6y ago
    Is it that poor? During the pandemic my son has stayed in touch with his friends on the phone in these big group chats and smaller chats as well. I’m amazed at how natural it has become for them. They talk, gossip, play games (Roblox, Fortnite, nba 2k), and even watch YouTube and TikTok together. I think the model they created will persist into post Covid, with the addition of physical connection.
    - abduhl 6y ago
      It is a poor substitution. Online groups nowadays are inherently exclusive and degenerative: they very rarely grow to include new individuals who were not in from the start and often will shrink over time as people feel slighted by something or another and disengage. There is no opportunity for growth. Social groups get crystallized and social growth stunted.
      - ed312 6y ago
        Does that same process not naturally play out as kids turn into adults? (e.g. college freshmen massive friend groups -> 10 years later only really talk / hang out with 10 or so folks)
        abduhl 6y ago
        I'm responding to this comment as a response to all the comments which all seem to have a similar tone. I think it's important to remember that kids are at a different stage in their life than adults. Having small locked in social groups from a young age is bad: it limits experiences, creates echo chambers, and ultimately can lead to stunted growth. The most important thing about what you said re: kids turning into adults is that they had the chance to select their 10 or so folks from a massive friend group. Locking in a social group when your choices up to that point in life are the people you went to elementary school with is likely to have severe consequences, and that is the real harm of shutting in-person schooling down. I won't even touch on the idea/harm of replacing physical connections with purely online ones. A lot of my friends are people I have met via the internet, but our friendships have often been cemented by eventually meeting up in person. I suspect the same is true for most people who talk about their extensive online social graph.
      - TeMPOraL 6y ago
        Not to my experience. Whether big (subreddits, HN) or small (bunch of friends over a Telegram/WhatsApp chat), the groups tend to be somewhat inclusive and grow over time; the larger they are, the faster they grow. But even if they didn't, arguably exclusivity is a feature.
  - rochak 6y ago
    Can confirm. I used to like staying alone and being connected via social media. Now, I don’t enjoy that anymore. Maybe it is because I am tired of the dopamine hits social media provides.
    - tcbawo 6y ago
      Social media as it currently exists isn't going to substitute personal relationships. It misses the trees for the forest (personal vs tribal). To me, it feels like being at a party where I only know a handful of people and I have to shout to communicate with the people I do know. But, technology can connect people with shared interests and activities and facilitate one-on-one communication. People who are into baseball cards or bird watching can find each other. Technology has the capacity to enrich long term relationships. I think we're still figuring it all out.
  - tcbawo 6y ago
    I agree. Although, in practice digital activities probably help to strengthen and keep relationships alive, which could lead to greater real physical connections in a symbiotic way.
- Invictus0 6y ago
  > connected with technology and spend more time socially with digital experiences As a young person today, I feel totally disconnected from the people around me, even moreso because of the pandemic, and I actively try to spend less time "socially"/"digitally" etc. because they only increase feelings of loneliness. No technology besides basic telephony has done anything to help me stay more connected to my friends.
bogdan314 6y ago
happy news. The study does mention at the end that spending time alone dose not mean the individual feels lonely. Then reference this[1] article for more details. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/lonely-not-alone https://ourworldindata.org/lonely-not-alone
- yodsanklai 6y ago
  > The study does mention at the end that spending time alone dose not mean the individual feels lonely I'm a bit doubtful about this study. It's only anecdotal evidence, but I heard many old persons complaining heavily about loneliness.
- joshxyz 6y ago
  Alone not lonely, lol. I think one part of it is of course partners dying but on top of that is giving less of a fuck as we grow old then really cherishing our time with the things that interests us intead of putting up with shitty people and shitty things in life Also, the spending time with children is sadly low, imagine growing up with no grandkids to see man that must suck
- devchix 6y ago
  The reverse is worse, I think, feeling lonely while surrounded by people, or being with people who make you feel alone. I recommend a film called Somewhere by Sofia Coppola, it's about an actor (not old) going through the motions of his life, always surrounded by people, yet his internal landscape is vast emptiness. There's a scene where he falls asleep while watching twin pole dance routine in his hotel room! Coppola has a good eye for these "lonely in a crowded place" condition. The female character at a temple in Tokyo in Lost In Translations comes to mind, and the Bill Murray character calling home. Likewise Marie Antoinette, two characters isolated and lonely, navigating the party atmosphere in the Chateau Marmont of its time.
yodsanklai 6y ago
I remember a trip to Hong Kong. I was very surprised to see a lot of old folks hanging out together, in the park, or traditional restaurants. Actually, even in NYC, there were always a lot of elderlies spending time in the Deli near my home. Maybe the secret is to retire in a place where one can maintain a good social life at an advanced age.
- burlesona 6y ago
  This is very true. Unfortunately such places are almost all very expensive these days. So if you’re not already into late retirement age (and you moved there 40 years ago when it was affordable), then it’s not economically feasible for most people to get in now.
  - wbl 6y ago
    Places can change. There's nothing stopping suburbia from becoming more walkable and friendly to the elderly other than choices we made.
    - burlesona 6y ago
      There's actually a lot stopping it. First and foremost, reams of zoning and other regulations that are not easy to repeal. Second, the entire physical environment poured in concrete which is expensive and difficult to retrofit well. The street patterns of suburbia are hostile to walkability because they intentionally increase the distance between points with poor connectivity and dendritic routing. This is why the majority of suburban areas decline after the first generation of development and never revitalize.
    - pwinnski 6y ago
      Places CAN change, but there is a lot stopping suburbia from becoming more walkable. In the case of American suburbs, places will need to change by basically tearing everything down and rebuilding differently, either a piece at a time or all at once.
      - 6y ago
HenryBemis 6y ago
> seems crazy to me is how much time alone increases with age Many (to a degree or another) get tired of other people. Divorces, break-ups, tired of fights for money/inheritance, tired of people acting stupid, tired of fighting about politics, favourite teams, and many many many more. I think people are getting tired of not getting 'what they want' from life, a partner, their kids, society, 'the system', so they self-isolate, do the things they enjoy (nothing, fishing, watching the birds, watching tv, etc.) without having anyone telling them to get their feet of the couch, don't eat cookies in bed, and other similar annoyances. Also, depression, poverty, lifestyle, nostalgia. I was reading* that men tend to go back to their hometown and grow old/die there, women want to stay where they are or move forward. I assume that (for the 50+) this maybe has to do with the inequality and how women suffered/were treated badly when they were growing up in place A, 50 years ago vs living on place B, with today's change social mechanics. I can think of a dozen more reasons.. I am not a psychologist, I just started observing how the 50+ like to live, as one day we will all get there :) *Addition: I tried to remember more about that book and a couple of interviews but for the life of me I cannot remember the guy's name or face.. just his voice. He went on to explain the reason for that; in some countries/societies, when a couple marries, it is accustomed to live to the MAN's hometown, and in some other countries/societies they go to live to the WOMAN's hometown. So there could be the chance that they are not 'very' happy, they spend a life oppressed, and towards the end of their lives (and especially if the couple drifts apart -post empty nest, or one passes away) they want to go back to the place they grew up, which was not tarnished by 'hurtful memories' and they only have fond memories. Somewhere where they 'always belonged' either if they have not been there for 20-40 years. They will return and find their old friends.
conradev 6y ago
My grandma sold her house and we used some of the money to convert our garage into an apartment for her so that she could live with our family. Certainly not everyone can do this but living with your parents/grandparents as they get older does seem like a reasonable “fix” to me.
- 5555624 6y ago
  When my father's father passed away, my grandmother sold the house and bought a mobile home, which was put about 50 feet from her daughter's house. (This was in rural Pennsylvania.) It worked out great for more than 30 years. She could be alone, she could be with family.
- caymanjim 6y ago
  It's nice that you feel this way about your parents and grandparents, but this is a nightmare scenario for me. I hope I die suddenly before I have to rely on anyone else to support me in any way, and if I'm being honest, I hope my own parents go out that way too.
  - lotsofpulp 6y ago
    There’s different levels of support. Shopping for groceries or helping your elders do laundry is different than changing their diapers and spoon feeding them. Of course, it depends on the individual’s personalities and whether or not they can accept the compromises of living near or with each other. I would want to commit suicide before I subject my kids or grandkids to permanently doing basic tasks like cleaning up my bodily functions or spoon feeding me, but I certainly don’t mind helping my elders with various tasks every now and then.
  - exolymph 6y ago
    Might be best to make the suicide plans now. Do be sure to inform your parents that you'd rather not help them through their elderly infirmity.
    - tripzilch 6y ago
frakt0x90 6y ago
I experienced this first hand when I visited my wife's family in Vietnam. All 10 or so of them live in homes side by side on the outskirts of Saigon. Everyone woke up in the morning and cooked for each other. Every day was like a little party. It was so nice to have that much support around all the time. I have never experienced anything like that in the US. Of course having family literally at your doorstep has its pros and cons but it worked really well for them.
- Swizec 6y ago
  My mom always said ”Move far away enough that your parents can’t visit in their slippers, trust me you don’t want that kinda meddling” I moved to USA. “Damn it I didn’t mean that far” ~ mom My sister lives with her boyfriend in his mom’s house. There is indeed a ridiculous amount of meddling even though they’re technically separate households.
  - vollmond 6y ago
    This becomes even more likely with internet communities, etc. I met my wife online, and our hometowns are 1200 miles apart. It's impossible to live less than an 8 hour drive from both our families. We lived near mine for 4 or 5 years after getting married, now near hers for about 10. It's hard to feel close to both, and have that support network.
    - iso947 6y ago
      I’m from NW England. Wife is from Cornwall - 6 hour drive away. We met at uni, 2 hours for her, 4 for me. Then my parents moved to Greece, we moved to London for career and bounced around the south east. Eventually though we settled in Cheshire, and the parents followed - one is a 10 minute walk away, the other is 20 minute drive. It’s amazing what having grandchildren does. Trouble is we’d feel guilty about moving to New Zealand now.
  - burade 6y ago
    It's only meddling if you're way too stressed out by trying to keep up with capitalism. If you live a simple life without too much stress then it's not really meddling.
gabaix 6y ago
I don’t think there’s an easy fix for this, and that makes me sad. One remedy is as simple as a phone call. Calling old time friends and relatives can make wonder. Most will rejoice at hearing a familiar voice. Another remedy is acceptance of being alone. Being alone without feeling lonely is an acquired skill.
op03 6y ago
That's all nice until they start holding you responsible for the activities and issues of every sibling, cousin or random distant relative you have never met :)
gwd 6y ago
> The thing that seems crazy to me is how much time alone increases with age. But the thing is, time with family, friends, and spouse stay basically constant. The only thing that changes is time spent with coworkers, and time spent with children. But when you're at your office hacking away at your computer, are you really "with coworkers"? Is it really less lonely to sit at your desk, with your coworkers at their desks, than it is to sit at the workbench in your garage with your wife in the house? I know there are exceptions -- people whose spouse has died, who live alone, and crave every bit of social interaction they can get. But on the whole this graph was fairly positive for me.
- freeone3000 6y ago
  >But when you're at your office hacking away at your computer, are you really "with coworkers"? Is it really less lonely to sit at your desk, with your coworkers at their desks, than it is to sit at the workbench in your garage with your wife in the house? There's a lot of incidental, in-person interaction that happens when sharing a space with other people. Even little things like meeting a coworker at a coffee machine, or going for lunch at the same time. Adults at work spend as much time, or more, around their coworkers than kids spend around their classmates at school.
chrisseaton 6y ago
> living in a nice little garden home far removed from any day to day life going on Don’t you have neighbours and normal community areas in this case? Doesn’t that count as day to day life? What else are you expecting?
- hannasanarion 6y ago
  Not if those neighbors spend all day every day at schools, workplaces, community centers, and shopping areas that are 2-5 miles away and accessible only by car.
globular-toast 6y ago
I don't think you even have to look back to when people lived in little villages. People nowadays are more likely to relocate for work and more likely to have children later, if at all. Why do so many people send their children to daycare when quite often there are grandparents who would love to look after the child? Most likely is the grandparents live nowhere near them. I already spend the vast majority of my time alone, so I don't find it sad.
ska 6y ago
> The thing that seems crazy to me is how much time alone increases with age. I think your focus on construction is looking at a symptom - this is an unintended consequence of the nuclear family emphasis; the construction changed to support it.
jelliclesfarm 6y ago
This! Recently I had a discussion here on HN with a young person who wants to move into Palo Alto and finds the prices astronomical.(it was very enlightening conservation and if HN had a messaging system I would invite him to listen in here) Society blames seniors for ‘taking up spaces meant for ‘young growing families’. In CA, it’s usually their frustration over how they pay little taxes and live in big homes. The frustration is valid but misplaced. The solution is not to punitively tax them that would end up driving them out of their towns or homes and into isolated retirement communities. I place the blame entirely on the govt that is squeezing and squeezing young working people for taxes and turning everyone against each other. Nowhere is this more obvious than in the undignified fight for land. Everything is instigated by the dissatisfaction of what do I get in return for the taxes I pay. The govt should work for US. We are working for the govt. In California, this is gaslighting of the public at a state level. I want to shake people out of this stupor and show them that they are being abused by the politicians in Sacramento. It starts at the public school level where children are indoctrinated to be sheep and follow the ‘leader’ because they are most vulnerable. It carries on to university level especially if the students are not in brain cell burning hard subjects or even anything that completely consumes them and suffuses them with concentration for the love of learning. They end up with too much time on their hands and go out in the world to tilt windmills. Your last line: yes! There is an easy fix for this. Multigenerational family homes. This is high density living that is sustainable without any of the cons associated with it. And your are living with people you like. And still able to meet a variety of diverse people outside your home. Because communities that are multi generational have people of all ages. Older people have experience but not working productively. Young people can work but not as wealthy as older people. Children have nothing and have the all kinds of help from a multigenerational family..not just mothers, uncles and aunts along with grandparents but also siblings and cousins. Having a huge compound that shares resources like water, electricity, micro grid, gardens, play spaces and shared vehicles. Home schooling is possible and most importantly childcare. Ideal family size would be 6 and can be as much 18-25 depending on how big the compound is...this is a lesser footprint. The advantage of multigenerational families vs a large family is that the former has many people covering diff roles but in a family only the parents do every thing. There is more work distribution and allocation. Multi generational families frees women from the traditional chokehold of household duties by distributing it and they can go to work or study more because they know uncles or aunts or grandparents are around for caregiving of children. I grew up in such a family, so I also know the downsides of it. In my generation, most families were multigenerational and like like. And I have thought long and hard about this and I think it comes down again to resources. When families are forced to be multigenerational due to necessity or tradition, it comes with its own set of issues. But if it’s a planned family with guidelines agreed upon by the family members themselves, it can function efficiently.
ThoreauBred 6y ago
Did you read the bottom half of the linked website? It clearly states more alone time does not necessarily mean they’re lonelier as individuals. Perhaps as a species this nuclear family model we have to start with should really be giving way in later life to more autonomy? After 20+ years being parented and pushed into team work, is it so terrible to consider enabling free agency and experience? What makes me sad is the idea there’s objective truth to living in what we know was often an abusive and stifling lifestyle for many many people. The easy fix: don’t personally seek a holy war where one does not exist. As soon as we start wondering what to do top down, we start focusing on arbitrary correctness and ignore the individual. Cultural “facts” always lose to facts of physical reality. No culture has found that perfect social glue. Maybe it’s a mirage fed to us through historical story, not something that is real?
- asiachick 6y ago
  > After 20+ years being parented and pushed into team work, is it so terrible to consider enabling free agency and experience? This is an entirely western or American POV. I have no idea if it came from media (movies/books telling us we should move out as soon as possible) or from advertising (because if you can get people to move out you sell more stuff. More housing, more cars, more every day appliances etc...) In plenty of cultures there is ZERO stigma of not moving out of your birth home until you get married and that might not happen till your 30s or 40s. It's just normal.
  - cmdshiftf4 6y ago
    >I have no idea if it came from media (movies/books telling us we should move out as soon as possible) or from advertising (because if you can get people to move out you sell more stuff. More housing, more cars, more every day appliances etc...) That's my instinctive suspicion personally. The Western world has long devolved into having "CONSUME" blasted at you 24/7 from 360 degrees so I've no doubt that the above is any different. Surprised we're not being pushed into 𝚌̶𝚛̶𝚎̶𝚊̶𝚝̶𝚒̶𝚗̶𝚐̶ ̶𝚊̶𝚗̶ ̶𝚎̶𝚟̶𝚎̶𝚛̶ ̶𝚐̶𝚛̶𝚎̶𝚊̶𝚝̶𝚎̶𝚛̶ ̶𝚐̶𝚛̶𝚊̶𝚙̶𝚑̶ ̶𝚘̶𝚏̶ ̶𝚌̶𝚘̶𝚗̶𝚜̶𝚞̶𝚖̶𝚎̶𝚛̶𝚜̶ having more babies... although that corporate thirst is probably better satisfied with mass immigration and therefore more immediate dollars.
AnthonyMouse 6y ago
> I don’t think there’s an easy fix for this, and that makes me sad. I mean, there is, which is to reintroduce mixed use zoning. You essentially allow people to operate small businesses out of their homes. This changes the dynamic very quickly because the change can happen before the new construction. As soon as it's allowed, someone buys a house on your street, or one of your existing neighbors does this, and it becomes a bistro from the hours of 6PM to 10PM. The neighbors gather there on a regular basis and get to know each other. Then the house across the street converts a room to a convenience store, and now you can walk to a convenience store instead of having to drive to Walmart. What makes these things viable is that the proprietor still lives in the house, which reduces their operating costs and allows them to compete with the big guys. But it's currently prohibited by zoning. Really what might do something great is to have a new class of zoning designated for owner-occupied small businesses, i.e. you can operate a business there but only if someone who owns at least 30% of the business also lives there. Then rezone the majority of residential properties as that.
- bluedino 6y ago
  Convenience stores and restaurant are two things I don’t want to live next door to
glitchc 6y ago
The mobility of labour has some part to play in it. A lot of younger folks move to where the jobs are, and start their families close to their work. But their parents don't move with them since their current home, which they've lived in their whole lives, is too familiar and comfortable to leave. Just living in the same neighbourhood dramatically increases the chances of meeting up.
mattlondon 6y ago
> I don’t think there’s an easy fix for this, and that makes me sad. This sort of thing is advertised as one of the primary use-cases for self-driving cars IIRC. I.e. give people mobility who otherwise would not have the ability to drive (so also e.g. people who are blind etc)
LoveMortuus 6y ago
Honest question: Would/Could a elderly people friendly and oriented MMORPG help elderly feel less alone? And if so, is such technology even possible? My guess for first step would be finding out what kind of devices do elderly have access to and more importantly, what kind of devices they use. Side-thought: Such a MMORPG could even have a subscription based financial model, as most elderly do get regular monthly income. The moral question: Is it better to be addicted but not alone, or is it better to be alone and not addicted. I personally think that not only could this bring new light for the elderly and a opportunity to connect with others including the younger generations. I think such a solution could help elderly feel less lonely, and it is a solution that could be provided at their homes.
- BjorksEgo 6y ago
  Peak HN
- RugnirViking 6y ago
  Speaking as someone who feels very alone and plays mmorpgs: its an extremely poor replacement. Nothing more than an unhealthy coping mechanism, like drugs or alcohol. Sure its possible to have a healthy relationship with such a thing if you have fulfillment in other areas of your life, but if you don't its not good for you. I think perhaps it would be possible to design something that pushed people together a lot more, but if you were going to do that it would probably be better to work on actual real life social engineering, making meetup groups etc.
rayiner 6y ago
This. I live in a tiny pre-zoning code neighborhood where my neighbors and their kids are 100 feet away. I see and talk with neighbors every day when leaving the house, and not just people like me but people of different ages and backgrounds. My parents live 10 minutes away and we’re their multiple times a week. Same for my neighbors—one couple has their parents living in the same subdivision, another lives with her sister and young kid. It’s so much better than when I lived in DC I can’t even convey it. My only regret is that my extended family lives on the other side of the planet. When I was little everyone lived in the same city (Dhaka, Bangladesh). My mom’s sisters were at our house several times a week. Moving to the US was depressing—so much so that my mom has always been quite bitter about it.
ABCLAW 6y ago
>I don’t think there’s an easy fix for this, and that makes me sad. I mean, the fix is really straightforward. You prevent the burbs from siphoning tax dollars off the host city they surround so that the high cost of sprawl is placed on them, rather than poorer city-center districts. Then, you emulate the community and land-use strategies of areas in which the eldest are least displaced. One of the key features of global blue zones is the inclusion of elders in society. This means opening up a lot of zoning space to mixed medium density residential/commercial zones and designating very generous volumes of family-sized units in high and medium density developments to restrict the optimization of development projects into tiny bachelor accommodation units and ultra-spacious penthouses. In short, make medium density housing in walkable communities and stop transferring wealth away from those communities.
- natchy 6y ago
  would rather have mixed zoning, resulting in more distributed "city centers". I don't like big cities, but would love a more connected small town.
- burlesona 6y ago
  I'm ambivalent to your policy prescription; it might or might not work well in practice, but it does sound like it would work. But I would hardly call that easy, when you need to undo generations of legislation, business convention, and nearly the entire structure of the financial markets, in order to accomplish all that.
gehwartzen 6y ago
The older I get the more I enjoy spending time by myself. I'm not sure its universally a bad thing.
- CubsFan1060 6y ago
  I'm amazed I had to read so far to see this. The older I get, the more I realized I don't like people that much.
  - onecommentman 6y ago
    I was scrolling down, skimming the comments and figuring out how old each poster was. It was sort of like parents talking about children, except here the children could read, had been parents and were wiser. No one proposing to ask the elders what they might want or need. People pushing political and social agendas tangential to the core issue (surprise, surprise). Sweeping generalizations with no supporting information or, at best, anecdatum (always one datum). Par for the online course, but easier to see when you are the target demographic. Old people, like old trees, become more gnarled and unique as time progresses. Some might say more interesting, some say less useful..check out Taoism for more insight there. Young people are more similar and they look to many others for stimulation because they themselves are...pretty boring. Old people are much more interesting in their own right, and each of their old friends pack ten times the interestingness of a stripling, so far fewer are needed. An old friend or acquaintance brings an order of magnitude or more adult experiences, a multidimensional nature, and the metadata of all the times and places in which they were lived. A young person (<30, maybe 40) is a scalar variable, and you’re lucky if it’s double precision. From a heart standpoint, the older a person gets, the more transpersonal their emotions and energies, in preparation for their next journey. The truly aged are the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, but they aren’t around long enough for the young to realize it. Conditioned love is there, but is “emptying into white”. Best not to muck around too much if you are young, even if you are a family member.
    - gehwartzen 6y ago
      Well put. I actually spent a decent bit of my teen/young-adult years in nursing homes partially because I really enjoy talking to older people. I noticed though that while some were very chatty many were just as happy by themselves. Not that they wouldn't talk if I engaged but they were so comfortable in their own skin that external stimuli had a much lower influence on inner peace. This was in Europe though. I imagine if someone is generally uncomfortable in their later years or has a lot of ailments or diseases that might be different.
economusty 6y ago
People don't just end up that way, they choose to live in these homes.
irrational 6y ago
I spend so much time around people right now (middle aged man with coworkers and kids) that I long for the days of solitude and being alone for extended stretches. Maybe at some point that desire will wane and I’ll want to reintegrate with society.
tripzilch 6y ago
Not everybody is privileged with a functional family. Or one that is safe. Or sane. Or will accept them for who they are. Etc etc etc. The idea that "family is who you got and you stick with them" is very nice if you have a great family, but please don't force this on everybody. It's very similar to the antiquated idea that you should be sad for a woman because she doesn't have a man. The problem is loneliness. By treating it as a "family" problem, any solutions will exclude people who still can't fall back on a functional/safe/sane/accepting family. I can understand it makes you sad if you have a happy family and wish this for others. But in some situations it'd be equivalent to wishing someone would stay with their abusive partner. Also, what's this about only grandparents getting to enjoy company in their old age? What about the people without children+grandchildren?? That singular fact makes their lives carbon neutral several times over, which deserves quite an amount of respect, unlike people who did it because say, they feared being alone in their old age. Which you should not underestimate as an actual reason people use. And it also does not create happy families.
simonebrunozzi 6y ago
You are so right. Architecture, and city planning, are the main reasons for this. Proof is that even immigrant populations (e.g. Greeks, Italians) still adapt and adjust to the new environment - almost completely abandoning the healthy community habits of their country of origin. It's not the people, it's the environment - at least to a large extent.
mstade 6y ago
There was a show on one of the Swedish tv channels where they followed an experiment with mixing an elderly (75+) care home with a kindergarten. I think what they did was one or a couple of days a week the kids (all under 6-7 if I recall) would spend time in the care home with the elderly, doing different activities together (singing, dancing, painting, whatever you do in kindergarten basically) and then measuring the effects on cognitive and physical abilities of the elderly. It was an interesting show, and they claim the health benefits to the elderly were significant. The interviews with the old people were very poignant, with one saying she was considering suicide before the experiment, because she felt so lonely. The kids also seemed to appreciate it a lot, being at that age where they just like having fun and learning new things. Sadly the epilogue of the show sad Covid-19 stopped any further expansion of the experiment, but hopefully it will continue once it's safe again. It seems to me like a great idea, combining child care with elderly care.
WhyNotHugo 6y ago
> The thing that seems crazy to me is how much time alone increases with age. There are many many reasons for it, but one thing I think is especially sad is how much this is a consequence of our built environment. Huh, amusing way to see it. Introvert here. I see it as a natural progression. "Finally, I don't have to be around people all day and can have lots of time to myself!". I'm actually impressed at how few Americans live alone under the age of 30. I guess having roomates is more of a thing in the US...?

tcbawo 6y ago

As the younger people alive today get older, they are more likely to remain connected with technology and spend more time socially with digital experiences (playing video games with friends, etc.). Hopefully, this will help offset loneliness that might accompany decreased mobility.

torgian 6y ago
Unfortunately this is a poor substitute for real physical connection with other people.
- kenjackson 6y ago
  Is it that poor? During the pandemic my son has stayed in touch with his friends on the phone in these big group chats and smaller chats as well. I’m amazed at how natural it has become for them. They talk, gossip, play games (Roblox, Fortnite, nba 2k), and even watch YouTube and TikTok together. I think the model they created will persist into post Covid, with the addition of physical connection.
  - abduhl 6y ago
    It is a poor substitution. Online groups nowadays are inherently exclusive and degenerative: they very rarely grow to include new individuals who were not in from the start and often will shrink over time as people feel slighted by something or another and disengage. There is no opportunity for growth. Social groups get crystallized and social growth stunted.
    - ed312 6y ago
      Does that same process not naturally play out as kids turn into adults? (e.g. college freshmen massive friend groups -> 10 years later only really talk / hang out with 10 or so folks)
      - abduhl 6y ago
        I'm responding to this comment as a response to all the comments which all seem to have a similar tone. I think it's important to remember that kids are at a different stage in their life than adults. Having small locked in social groups from a young age is bad: it limits experiences, creates echo chambers, and ultimately can lead to stunted growth. The most important thing about what you said re: kids turning into adults is that they had the chance to select their 10 or so folks from a massive friend group. Locking in a social group when your choices up to that point in life are the people you went to elementary school with is likely to have severe consequences, and that is the real harm of shutting in-person schooling down. I won't even touch on the idea/harm of replacing physical connections with purely online ones. A lot of my friends are people I have met via the internet, but our friendships have often been cemented by eventually meeting up in person. I suspect the same is true for most people who talk about their extensive online social graph.
    - TeMPOraL 6y ago
      Not to my experience. Whether big (subreddits, HN) or small (bunch of friends over a Telegram/WhatsApp chat), the groups tend to be somewhat inclusive and grow over time; the larger they are, the faster they grow. But even if they didn't, arguably exclusivity is a feature.
- rochak 6y ago
  Can confirm. I used to like staying alone and being connected via social media. Now, I don’t enjoy that anymore. Maybe it is because I am tired of the dopamine hits social media provides.
  - tcbawo 6y ago
    Social media as it currently exists isn't going to substitute personal relationships. It misses the trees for the forest (personal vs tribal). To me, it feels like being at a party where I only know a handful of people and I have to shout to communicate with the people I do know. But, technology can connect people with shared interests and activities and facilitate one-on-one communication. People who are into baseball cards or bird watching can find each other. Technology has the capacity to enrich long term relationships. I think we're still figuring it all out.
- tcbawo 6y ago
  I agree. Although, in practice digital activities probably help to strengthen and keep relationships alive, which could lead to greater real physical connections in a symbiotic way.
Invictus0 6y ago
> connected with technology and spend more time socially with digital experiences As a young person today, I feel totally disconnected from the people around me, even moreso because of the pandemic, and I actively try to spend less time "socially"/"digitally" etc. because they only increase feelings of loneliness. No technology besides basic telephony has done anything to help me stay more connected to my friends.

bogdan314 6y ago

happy news. The study does mention at the end that spending time alone dose not mean the individual feels lonely. Then reference this[1] article for more details. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/lonely-not-alone https://ourworldindata.org/lonely-not-alone

yodsanklai 6y ago
> The study does mention at the end that spending time alone dose not mean the individual feels lonely I'm a bit doubtful about this study. It's only anecdotal evidence, but I heard many old persons complaining heavily about loneliness.
joshxyz 6y ago
Alone not lonely, lol. I think one part of it is of course partners dying but on top of that is giving less of a fuck as we grow old then really cherishing our time with the things that interests us intead of putting up with shitty people and shitty things in life Also, the spending time with children is sadly low, imagine growing up with no grandkids to see man that must suck
devchix 6y ago
The reverse is worse, I think, feeling lonely while surrounded by people, or being with people who make you feel alone. I recommend a film called Somewhere by Sofia Coppola, it's about an actor (not old) going through the motions of his life, always surrounded by people, yet his internal landscape is vast emptiness. There's a scene where he falls asleep while watching twin pole dance routine in his hotel room! Coppola has a good eye for these "lonely in a crowded place" condition. The female character at a temple in Tokyo in Lost In Translations comes to mind, and the Bill Murray character calling home. Likewise Marie Antoinette, two characters isolated and lonely, navigating the party atmosphere in the Chateau Marmont of its time.

yodsanklai 6y ago

I remember a trip to Hong Kong. I was very surprised to see a lot of old folks hanging out together, in the park, or traditional restaurants. Actually, even in NYC, there were always a lot of elderlies spending time in the Deli near my home. Maybe the secret is to retire in a place where one can maintain a good social life at an advanced age.

burlesona 6y ago
This is very true. Unfortunately such places are almost all very expensive these days. So if you’re not already into late retirement age (and you moved there 40 years ago when it was affordable), then it’s not economically feasible for most people to get in now.
- wbl 6y ago
  Places can change. There's nothing stopping suburbia from becoming more walkable and friendly to the elderly other than choices we made.
  - burlesona 6y ago
    There's actually a lot stopping it. First and foremost, reams of zoning and other regulations that are not easy to repeal. Second, the entire physical environment poured in concrete which is expensive and difficult to retrofit well. The street patterns of suburbia are hostile to walkability because they intentionally increase the distance between points with poor connectivity and dendritic routing. This is why the majority of suburban areas decline after the first generation of development and never revitalize.
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    Places CAN change, but there is a lot stopping suburbia from becoming more walkable. In the case of American suburbs, places will need to change by basically tearing everything down and rebuilding differently, either a piece at a time or all at once.
    - 6y ago

HenryBemis 6y ago

> seems crazy to me is how much time alone increases with age Many (to a degree or another) get tired of other people. Divorces, break-ups, tired of fights for money/inheritance, tired of people acting stupid, tired of fighting about politics, favourite teams, and many many many more. I think people are getting tired of not getting 'what they want' from life, a partner, their kids, society, 'the system', so they self-isolate, do the things they enjoy (nothing, fishing, watching the birds, watching tv, etc.) without having anyone telling them to get their feet of the couch, don't eat cookies in bed, and other similar annoyances. Also, depression, poverty, lifestyle, nostalgia. I was reading* that men tend to go back to their hometown and grow old/die there, women want to stay where they are or move forward. I assume that (for the 50+) this maybe has to do with the inequality and how women suffered/were treated badly when they were growing up in place A, 50 years ago vs living on place B, with today's change social mechanics. I can think of a dozen more reasons.. I am not a psychologist, I just started observing how the 50+ like to live, as one day we will all get there :) *Addition: I tried to remember more about that book and a couple of interviews but for the life of me I cannot remember the guy's name or face.. just his voice. He went on to explain the reason for that; in some countries/societies, when a couple marries, it is accustomed to live to the MAN's hometown, and in some other countries/societies they go to live to the WOMAN's hometown. So there could be the chance that they are not 'very' happy, they spend a life oppressed, and towards the end of their lives (and especially if the couple drifts apart -post empty nest, or one passes away) they want to go back to the place they grew up, which was not tarnished by 'hurtful memories' and they only have fond memories. Somewhere where they 'always belonged' either if they have not been there for 20-40 years. They will return and find their old friends.

conradev 6y ago

My grandma sold her house and we used some of the money to convert our garage into an apartment for her so that she could live with our family. Certainly not everyone can do this but living with your parents/grandparents as they get older does seem like a reasonable “fix” to me.

5555624 6y ago
When my father's father passed away, my grandmother sold the house and bought a mobile home, which was put about 50 feet from her daughter's house. (This was in rural Pennsylvania.) It worked out great for more than 30 years. She could be alone, she could be with family.
caymanjim 6y ago
It's nice that you feel this way about your parents and grandparents, but this is a nightmare scenario for me. I hope I die suddenly before I have to rely on anyone else to support me in any way, and if I'm being honest, I hope my own parents go out that way too.
- lotsofpulp 6y ago
  There’s different levels of support. Shopping for groceries or helping your elders do laundry is different than changing their diapers and spoon feeding them. Of course, it depends on the individual’s personalities and whether or not they can accept the compromises of living near or with each other. I would want to commit suicide before I subject my kids or grandkids to permanently doing basic tasks like cleaning up my bodily functions or spoon feeding me, but I certainly don’t mind helping my elders with various tasks every now and then.
- exolymph 6y ago
  Might be best to make the suicide plans now. Do be sure to inform your parents that you'd rather not help them through their elderly infirmity.
  - tripzilch 6y ago

frakt0x90 6y ago

I experienced this first hand when I visited my wife's family in Vietnam. All 10 or so of them live in homes side by side on the outskirts of Saigon. Everyone woke up in the morning and cooked for each other. Every day was like a little party. It was so nice to have that much support around all the time. I have never experienced anything like that in the US. Of course having family literally at your doorstep has its pros and cons but it worked really well for them.

Swizec 6y ago
My mom always said ”Move far away enough that your parents can’t visit in their slippers, trust me you don’t want that kinda meddling” I moved to USA. “Damn it I didn’t mean that far” ~ mom My sister lives with her boyfriend in his mom’s house. There is indeed a ridiculous amount of meddling even though they’re technically separate households.
- vollmond 6y ago
  This becomes even more likely with internet communities, etc. I met my wife online, and our hometowns are 1200 miles apart. It's impossible to live less than an 8 hour drive from both our families. We lived near mine for 4 or 5 years after getting married, now near hers for about 10. It's hard to feel close to both, and have that support network.
  - iso947 6y ago
    I’m from NW England. Wife is from Cornwall - 6 hour drive away. We met at uni, 2 hours for her, 4 for me. Then my parents moved to Greece, we moved to London for career and bounced around the south east. Eventually though we settled in Cheshire, and the parents followed - one is a 10 minute walk away, the other is 20 minute drive. It’s amazing what having grandchildren does. Trouble is we’d feel guilty about moving to New Zealand now.
- burade 6y ago
  It's only meddling if you're way too stressed out by trying to keep up with capitalism. If you live a simple life without too much stress then it's not really meddling.

gabaix 6y ago

I don’t think there’s an easy fix for this, and that makes me sad. One remedy is as simple as a phone call. Calling old time friends and relatives can make wonder. Most will rejoice at hearing a familiar voice. Another remedy is acceptance of being alone. Being alone without feeling lonely is an acquired skill.

op03 6y ago

That's all nice until they start holding you responsible for the activities and issues of every sibling, cousin or random distant relative you have never met :)

gwd 6y ago

> The thing that seems crazy to me is how much time alone increases with age. But the thing is, time with family, friends, and spouse stay basically constant. The only thing that changes is time spent with coworkers, and time spent with children. But when you're at your office hacking away at your computer, are you really "with coworkers"? Is it really less lonely to sit at your desk, with your coworkers at their desks, than it is to sit at the workbench in your garage with your wife in the house? I know there are exceptions -- people whose spouse has died, who live alone, and crave every bit of social interaction they can get. But on the whole this graph was fairly positive for me.

freeone3000 6y ago
>But when you're at your office hacking away at your computer, are you really "with coworkers"? Is it really less lonely to sit at your desk, with your coworkers at their desks, than it is to sit at the workbench in your garage with your wife in the house? There's a lot of incidental, in-person interaction that happens when sharing a space with other people. Even little things like meeting a coworker at a coffee machine, or going for lunch at the same time. Adults at work spend as much time, or more, around their coworkers than kids spend around their classmates at school.

chrisseaton 6y ago

> living in a nice little garden home far removed from any day to day life going on Don’t you have neighbours and normal community areas in this case? Doesn’t that count as day to day life? What else are you expecting?

hannasanarion 6y ago
Not if those neighbors spend all day every day at schools, workplaces, community centers, and shopping areas that are 2-5 miles away and accessible only by car.

globular-toast 6y ago

I don't think you even have to look back to when people lived in little villages. People nowadays are more likely to relocate for work and more likely to have children later, if at all. Why do so many people send their children to daycare when quite often there are grandparents who would love to look after the child? Most likely is the grandparents live nowhere near them. I already spend the vast majority of my time alone, so I don't find it sad.

ska 6y ago

> The thing that seems crazy to me is how much time alone increases with age. I think your focus on construction is looking at a symptom - this is an unintended consequence of the nuclear family emphasis; the construction changed to support it.

jelliclesfarm 6y ago

This! Recently I had a discussion here on HN with a young person who wants to move into Palo Alto and finds the prices astronomical.(it was very enlightening conservation and if HN had a messaging system I would invite him to listen in here) Society blames seniors for ‘taking up spaces meant for ‘young growing families’. In CA, it’s usually their frustration over how they pay little taxes and live in big homes. The frustration is valid but misplaced. The solution is not to punitively tax them that would end up driving them out of their towns or homes and into isolated retirement communities. I place the blame entirely on the govt that is squeezing and squeezing young working people for taxes and turning everyone against each other. Nowhere is this more obvious than in the undignified fight for land. Everything is instigated by the dissatisfaction of what do I get in return for the taxes I pay. The govt should work for US. We are working for the govt. In California, this is gaslighting of the public at a state level. I want to shake people out of this stupor and show them that they are being abused by the politicians in Sacramento. It starts at the public school level where children are indoctrinated to be sheep and follow the ‘leader’ because they are most vulnerable. It carries on to university level especially if the students are not in brain cell burning hard subjects or even anything that completely consumes them and suffuses them with concentration for the love of learning. They end up with too much time on their hands and go out in the world to tilt windmills. Your last line: yes! There is an easy fix for this. Multigenerational family homes. This is high density living that is sustainable without any of the cons associated with it. And your are living with people you like. And still able to meet a variety of diverse people outside your home. Because communities that are multi generational have people of all ages. Older people have experience but not working productively. Young people can work but not as wealthy as older people. Children have nothing and have the all kinds of help from a multigenerational family..not just mothers, uncles and aunts along with grandparents but also siblings and cousins. Having a huge compound that shares resources like water, electricity, micro grid, gardens, play spaces and shared vehicles. Home schooling is possible and most importantly childcare. Ideal family size would be 6 and can be as much 18-25 depending on how big the compound is...this is a lesser footprint. The advantage of multigenerational families vs a large family is that the former has many people covering diff roles but in a family only the parents do every thing. There is more work distribution and allocation. Multi generational families frees women from the traditional chokehold of household duties by distributing it and they can go to work or study more because they know uncles or aunts or grandparents are around for caregiving of children. I grew up in such a family, so I also know the downsides of it. In my generation, most families were multigenerational and like like. And I have thought long and hard about this and I think it comes down again to resources. When families are forced to be multigenerational due to necessity or tradition, it comes with its own set of issues. But if it’s a planned family with guidelines agreed upon by the family members themselves, it can function efficiently.

ThoreauBred 6y ago

Did you read the bottom half of the linked website? It clearly states more alone time does not necessarily mean they’re lonelier as individuals. Perhaps as a species this nuclear family model we have to start with should really be giving way in later life to more autonomy? After 20+ years being parented and pushed into team work, is it so terrible to consider enabling free agency and experience? What makes me sad is the idea there’s objective truth to living in what we know was often an abusive and stifling lifestyle for many many people. The easy fix: don’t personally seek a holy war where one does not exist. As soon as we start wondering what to do top down, we start focusing on arbitrary correctness and ignore the individual. Cultural “facts” always lose to facts of physical reality. No culture has found that perfect social glue. Maybe it’s a mirage fed to us through historical story, not something that is real?

asiachick 6y ago
> After 20+ years being parented and pushed into team work, is it so terrible to consider enabling free agency and experience? This is an entirely western or American POV. I have no idea if it came from media (movies/books telling us we should move out as soon as possible) or from advertising (because if you can get people to move out you sell more stuff. More housing, more cars, more every day appliances etc...) In plenty of cultures there is ZERO stigma of not moving out of your birth home until you get married and that might not happen till your 30s or 40s. It's just normal.
- cmdshiftf4 6y ago
  >I have no idea if it came from media (movies/books telling us we should move out as soon as possible) or from advertising (because if you can get people to move out you sell more stuff. More housing, more cars, more every day appliances etc...) That's my instinctive suspicion personally. The Western world has long devolved into having "CONSUME" blasted at you 24/7 from 360 degrees so I've no doubt that the above is any different. Surprised we're not being pushed into 𝚌̶𝚛̶𝚎̶𝚊̶𝚝̶𝚒̶𝚗̶𝚐̶ ̶𝚊̶𝚗̶ ̶𝚎̶𝚟̶𝚎̶𝚛̶ ̶𝚐̶𝚛̶𝚎̶𝚊̶𝚝̶𝚎̶𝚛̶ ̶𝚐̶𝚛̶𝚊̶𝚙̶𝚑̶ ̶𝚘̶𝚏̶ ̶𝚌̶𝚘̶𝚗̶𝚜̶𝚞̶𝚖̶𝚎̶𝚛̶𝚜̶ having more babies... although that corporate thirst is probably better satisfied with mass immigration and therefore more immediate dollars.

AnthonyMouse 6y ago

> I don’t think there’s an easy fix for this, and that makes me sad. I mean, there is, which is to reintroduce mixed use zoning. You essentially allow people to operate small businesses out of their homes. This changes the dynamic very quickly because the change can happen before the new construction. As soon as it's allowed, someone buys a house on your street, or one of your existing neighbors does this, and it becomes a bistro from the hours of 6PM to 10PM. The neighbors gather there on a regular basis and get to know each other. Then the house across the street converts a room to a convenience store, and now you can walk to a convenience store instead of having to drive to Walmart. What makes these things viable is that the proprietor still lives in the house, which reduces their operating costs and allows them to compete with the big guys. But it's currently prohibited by zoning. Really what might do something great is to have a new class of zoning designated for owner-occupied small businesses, i.e. you can operate a business there but only if someone who owns at least 30% of the business also lives there. Then rezone the majority of residential properties as that.

bluedino 6y ago
Convenience stores and restaurant are two things I don’t want to live next door to

glitchc 6y ago

The mobility of labour has some part to play in it. A lot of younger folks move to where the jobs are, and start their families close to their work. But their parents don't move with them since their current home, which they've lived in their whole lives, is too familiar and comfortable to leave. Just living in the same neighbourhood dramatically increases the chances of meeting up.

mattlondon 6y ago

> I don’t think there’s an easy fix for this, and that makes me sad. This sort of thing is advertised as one of the primary use-cases for self-driving cars IIRC. I.e. give people mobility who otherwise would not have the ability to drive (so also e.g. people who are blind etc)

LoveMortuus 6y ago

Honest question: Would/Could a elderly people friendly and oriented MMORPG help elderly feel less alone? And if so, is such technology even possible? My guess for first step would be finding out what kind of devices do elderly have access to and more importantly, what kind of devices they use. Side-thought: Such a MMORPG could even have a subscription based financial model, as most elderly do get regular monthly income. The moral question: Is it better to be addicted but not alone, or is it better to be alone and not addicted. I personally think that not only could this bring new light for the elderly and a opportunity to connect with others including the younger generations. I think such a solution could help elderly feel less lonely, and it is a solution that could be provided at their homes.

BjorksEgo 6y ago
Peak HN
RugnirViking 6y ago
Speaking as someone who feels very alone and plays mmorpgs: its an extremely poor replacement. Nothing more than an unhealthy coping mechanism, like drugs or alcohol. Sure its possible to have a healthy relationship with such a thing if you have fulfillment in other areas of your life, but if you don't its not good for you. I think perhaps it would be possible to design something that pushed people together a lot more, but if you were going to do that it would probably be better to work on actual real life social engineering, making meetup groups etc.

rayiner 6y ago

This. I live in a tiny pre-zoning code neighborhood where my neighbors and their kids are 100 feet away. I see and talk with neighbors every day when leaving the house, and not just people like me but people of different ages and backgrounds. My parents live 10 minutes away and we’re their multiple times a week. Same for my neighbors—one couple has their parents living in the same subdivision, another lives with her sister and young kid. It’s so much better than when I lived in DC I can’t even convey it. My only regret is that my extended family lives on the other side of the planet. When I was little everyone lived in the same city (Dhaka, Bangladesh). My mom’s sisters were at our house several times a week. Moving to the US was depressing—so much so that my mom has always been quite bitter about it.

ABCLAW 6y ago

>I don’t think there’s an easy fix for this, and that makes me sad. I mean, the fix is really straightforward. You prevent the burbs from siphoning tax dollars off the host city they surround so that the high cost of sprawl is placed on them, rather than poorer city-center districts. Then, you emulate the community and land-use strategies of areas in which the eldest are least displaced. One of the key features of global blue zones is the inclusion of elders in society. This means opening up a lot of zoning space to mixed medium density residential/commercial zones and designating very generous volumes of family-sized units in high and medium density developments to restrict the optimization of development projects into tiny bachelor accommodation units and ultra-spacious penthouses. In short, make medium density housing in walkable communities and stop transferring wealth away from those communities.

natchy 6y ago
would rather have mixed zoning, resulting in more distributed "city centers". I don't like big cities, but would love a more connected small town.
burlesona 6y ago
I'm ambivalent to your policy prescription; it might or might not work well in practice, but it does sound like it would work. But I would hardly call that easy, when you need to undo generations of legislation, business convention, and nearly the entire structure of the financial markets, in order to accomplish all that.

gehwartzen 6y ago

The older I get the more I enjoy spending time by myself. I'm not sure its universally a bad thing.

CubsFan1060 6y ago
I'm amazed I had to read so far to see this. The older I get, the more I realized I don't like people that much.
- onecommentman 6y ago
  I was scrolling down, skimming the comments and figuring out how old each poster was. It was sort of like parents talking about children, except here the children could read, had been parents and were wiser. No one proposing to ask the elders what they might want or need. People pushing political and social agendas tangential to the core issue (surprise, surprise). Sweeping generalizations with no supporting information or, at best, anecdatum (always one datum). Par for the online course, but easier to see when you are the target demographic. Old people, like old trees, become more gnarled and unique as time progresses. Some might say more interesting, some say less useful..check out Taoism for more insight there. Young people are more similar and they look to many others for stimulation because they themselves are...pretty boring. Old people are much more interesting in their own right, and each of their old friends pack ten times the interestingness of a stripling, so far fewer are needed. An old friend or acquaintance brings an order of magnitude or more adult experiences, a multidimensional nature, and the metadata of all the times and places in which they were lived. A young person (<30, maybe 40) is a scalar variable, and you’re lucky if it’s double precision. From a heart standpoint, the older a person gets, the more transpersonal their emotions and energies, in preparation for their next journey. The truly aged are the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, but they aren’t around long enough for the young to realize it. Conditioned love is there, but is “emptying into white”. Best not to muck around too much if you are young, even if you are a family member.
  - gehwartzen 6y ago
    Well put. I actually spent a decent bit of my teen/young-adult years in nursing homes partially because I really enjoy talking to older people. I noticed though that while some were very chatty many were just as happy by themselves. Not that they wouldn't talk if I engaged but they were so comfortable in their own skin that external stimuli had a much lower influence on inner peace. This was in Europe though. I imagine if someone is generally uncomfortable in their later years or has a lot of ailments or diseases that might be different.

economusty 6y ago

People don't just end up that way, they choose to live in these homes.

irrational 6y ago

I spend so much time around people right now (middle aged man with coworkers and kids) that I long for the days of solitude and being alone for extended stretches. Maybe at some point that desire will wane and I’ll want to reintegrate with society.

tripzilch 6y ago

Not everybody is privileged with a functional family. Or one that is safe. Or sane. Or will accept them for who they are. Etc etc etc. The idea that "family is who you got and you stick with them" is very nice if you have a great family, but please don't force this on everybody. It's very similar to the antiquated idea that you should be sad for a woman because she doesn't have a man. The problem is loneliness. By treating it as a "family" problem, any solutions will exclude people who still can't fall back on a functional/safe/sane/accepting family. I can understand it makes you sad if you have a happy family and wish this for others. But in some situations it'd be equivalent to wishing someone would stay with their abusive partner. Also, what's this about only grandparents getting to enjoy company in their old age? What about the people without children+grandchildren?? That singular fact makes their lives carbon neutral several times over, which deserves quite an amount of respect, unlike people who did it because say, they feared being alone in their old age. Which you should not underestimate as an actual reason people use. And it also does not create happy families.

simonebrunozzi 6y ago

You are so right. Architecture, and city planning, are the main reasons for this. Proof is that even immigrant populations (e.g. Greeks, Italians) still adapt and adjust to the new environment - almost completely abandoning the healthy community habits of their country of origin. It's not the people, it's the environment - at least to a large extent.

mstade 6y ago

There was a show on one of the Swedish tv channels where they followed an experiment with mixing an elderly (75+) care home with a kindergarten. I think what they did was one or a couple of days a week the kids (all under 6-7 if I recall) would spend time in the care home with the elderly, doing different activities together (singing, dancing, painting, whatever you do in kindergarten basically) and then measuring the effects on cognitive and physical abilities of the elderly. It was an interesting show, and they claim the health benefits to the elderly were significant. The interviews with the old people were very poignant, with one saying she was considering suicide before the experiment, because she felt so lonely. The kids also seemed to appreciate it a lot, being at that age where they just like having fun and learning new things. Sadly the epilogue of the show sad Covid-19 stopped any further expansion of the experiment, but hopefully it will continue once it's safe again. It seems to me like a great idea, combining child care with elderly care.

WhyNotHugo 6y ago

> The thing that seems crazy to me is how much time alone increases with age. There are many many reasons for it, but one thing I think is especially sad is how much this is a consequence of our built environment. Huh, amusing way to see it. Introvert here. I see it as a natural progression. "Finally, I don't have to be around people all day and can have lots of time to myself!". I'm actually impressed at how few Americans live alone under the age of 30. I guess having roomates is more of a thing in the US...?