11 ms·

Why Geeks Should Love HP WebOS

294 points by unwiredben 15y ago

LiteOn 15y ago
I consider "geek" an insult.
barkerja 15y ago
#5: The source is easy to find. Does this mean that all apps' source is accessible, or just Palm namespaced applications?
- unwiredben 15y ago
  PDK application are compiled C++, so you only have object code. Most of the apps HP ships on device are JS apps, so source is there. A developer can choose to only ship minified/obfuscated source code if they want, but there still has to be something for V8 to parse and execute.
  - barkerja 15y ago
    Right, I understand that but what I'm getting at is: if I create an application that is purely JS/HTML/CSS based, will my source be available to other developers that put their phone into "developer mode"? If so, is there any way to make it not publicly available?
    - unwiredben 15y ago
      No, there's no way to completely hide the source. However, we do have a key manager API that can be used to hide encryption keys so they're not exposed in your source.
- rmxdave 15y ago
  All non-PDK apps are viewable.
brianwillis 15y ago
Just tap on the “Just Type” search bar and enter “upupdowndownleftrightleftrightbastart” (the classic NES Konami code!); an icon appears that lets you toggle this mode on and off. Wait, really? If that's not a joke, then it's kind of cool.
- ortatherox 15y ago
  yeah, this entire thing has kinda impressed me, I'm on the lookout for a new ATM, may look into this
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- gkatsev 15y ago
  Yep, the konami code to get into dev mode has been in webos since the very beginning. I am talking webos 1.0. Also, WebOs is great. I really like it and the UI but so far the devices have been fairly unimpressive. The original Palm Pre was good for about 3 months. After which android and iphone have gotten so many updates. If the Palm Pre 3 lives up to it's ideal, it would definitely be worth a look but unfortunately, as cool as the OS is, the hardware just doesn't match.
  - rbanffy 15y ago
    I am quite happy with my Pre 2 (a gift by the developer program - they aren't sold in Brazil). There are a couple issues, as it appears to have never been tested here - GPS seems slow and may have a bug in its software, various reception weirdnesses (hard to get it to use 3G), but, overall, it's a very solid and responsive phone. I expect the 3 to up that a notch. Right now, I prefer it over iPhone and Android, as actually doing things (as opposed as to opening programs) happens more fluidly.
  - atourgates 15y ago
    I was deeply in love with WebOS on my 1st gen Pre. But - like you noted - the hardware was disappointing, and the Pre 2 should have been the Pre 1.5. Even a year after switching to the iPhone 4 - there are still things I miss about my Pre's UI. If I could get WebOS on iPhone quality hardware, I'd be there in a second.
treorock 15y ago
1. Ares 2. Cards 3. Notifications 4. Just Type 5. Exhibition 6. OTA updates 7. Gestures 8. Synergy 9. The WebOS community 10. WebOS Internals
- firefoxman1 15y ago
  Wow, I hadn't seen Ares before. An in-browser SDK. Sweet. Honestly, WebOS itself is way better than android or iOS, it's just that Palm sucked at marketing it, the Pre was only available on Sprint, they didn't attract many app developers, and they only sold 2 WebOS phones. I hope it's not too late for HP to fix it. Between the gestures, notifications, card-based multitasking, and JS/CSS/HTML apps I'm in heaven.
  - martingordon 15y ago
    Not only can you design and code your app from the browser, you have full debugging support in the browser that can remote debug on a physical device that's plugged in to the computer. I love iOS and its SDK, but Ares sure beats 4 GB Xcode updates.
    - firefoxman1 15y ago
      Wow. I will definitely be making a WebOS app now. It's really too bad Palm didn't think of Ares. It could have definitely changed the game.
      - unwiredben 15y ago
        Actually, Ares has been available for over a year now -- the technology team behind it has been building our new Enyo framework for websOS 3.0.
treorock 15y ago
1. Ares 2. Cards 3. Notifications 4. Just Type 5. Exhibition 6. OTA updates 7. Gestures 8. Synergy 9. The WebOS community 10. WebOS Internals
m0hit 15y ago
if only there was a good (and hopefully cheap) hardware device to go with webOS, it would definitely be cool to hack with. The Palm Pre, however, in my opinion did not function as a useful device, mostly because of the hardware (and lack of applications compared to iOS and android devices).
- mhd 15y ago
  Care to elaborate on the hardware? Speed seemed decent enough (compared with e.g. the first iPhone) and I personally really liked the "pebble" form factor. Sad that it'll never see webOS 2...
  - warthogkernel 15y ago
    webOS 2.1 can be installed on the Pre if you make use of the Meta-Doctor. Some additional hoops to jump through but it's entirely doable along with overclocking, you end up with a pretty snappy device. http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/WebOS_2_Upgrade http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/WebOS_2_Upgrade
    - jackson71 15y ago
      You want to be working on current-gen hardware if you're baselining future development efforts at 2.x going forward. What you don't want to be using as your sole dev/test unit is a two year-old device using an unofficial workaround to get an OS version installed that was never intended to be used on it. It's fine if you want to support those people that decided to use the workaround by having one of these franken-units around as a secondary edge-case device to test on, but it should never be the only device you use to develop and test with. I have a 1Ghz overclocked Sprint Pre at 1.4.5 as my "daily driver" and another Sprint Pre I've upgraded to 2.0 for testing such cases.
- unwiredben 15y ago
  Our new HP Veer phone with webOS is launching on AT&T next week. PreCentral reports a pretty good deal for people signing a new contract - http://www.precentral.net/white-ATT-veer-be-free-best-buy-available-in-store-pre-order http://www.precentral.net/white-ATT-veer-be-free-best-buy-av....
blinkingled 15y ago
webOS sorely needs Galaxy S2 class hardware. HP should stop all else and get a slick device out like yesterday.
- evangineer 15y ago
  One of my main issues with WebOS from day one has been the lack of what I would regard as decent hardware. Another issue in the past, which I hope has much improved since is the developer outreach which really sucked when I tried to engage. This was pre-HP acquisition. The fact that @unwiredben is active in this discussion is a good sign.
  - warthogkernel 15y ago
    The Pre actually had decent hardware except for being light on mem. The OMAP chip was particularly overclock friendly and once overclocked along with some additional tweaks was nice and fast. The problem was the earlier webOS versions had no GPU acceleration at all and ended seeming sluggish sometimes.
    - blinkingled 15y ago
      It needs a bigger form factor in slicker package - CPU/GPU matter but not as much as form factor for the Pre atm. Having the tiny Pre screen does little justice to webOS. If they could get a SGS2 or Atrix type device out with GPU accelerated webOS UI and may be ship Android compatibility until webOS apps catch up - it would become a really credible player.
      - evangineer 15y ago
        Yes, I should have been more precise. I've never liked the form factor and packaging of the WebOS devices. TouchPad looks like it might be up to scratch, but still nothing that looks good to me on the horizon in terms of the handset.
    - yardie 15y ago
      I have an old Sprint Pre and a Pre2. Even with the it clocked to 1.1GHz and an increase in the compcache the difference is quite noticeable. The Pre2 absolutely trounces it in performance. That extra 256MB makes a big difference.
eekfuh 15y ago
#7: You can try cutting edge stuff. Yet you can't even do css background gradients. Real cutting edge.
- DougReeder 15y ago
  CSS background gradients are visually appealing, but I'm not sure that's what users want to spend the ergs in their mobile device battery on.
  - keyle 15y ago
    I think it's about having the choice.
- catshirt 15y ago
  css gradients are the qualifier for "cutting edge"?
- unwiredben 15y ago
  Gradients are working much better in webOS 3.0, coming on the HP TouchPad
- rsanchez1 15y ago
  Running native C/C++ code is pretty cutting-edge stuff. It's essentially the Chrome Native Client, on mobile. I've developed a pretty nice app using a native plugin. Unfortunately, most current webOS users won't get to use it because, although the PDK was released last year and, at least for my app, hybrids work perfectly on all webOS devices running at least webOS 1.4.5, Palm (and now HP) has decided to restrict hybrid apps in the app catalog only to webOS 2.1 users, which are very few and far between right now.
- eekfuh 15y ago
  Defending myself against the down voters: The fact is, I am a webos developer and have been asking for this feature since 2009. It's been in webkit for the longest time and Palm have said they'll add it in, many times and never have. Major let down.
dpio 15y ago
Looking forward to the Pre 3.
plainOldText 15y ago
I think WebOS is great. But all the Palm devices are sliders which kinda sucks. I wish they'd come up with something comparable with Nexus S or iPhone 4. A simple, but cool nice little piece of smartphone. But, that's just me.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  I actually like the slider keyboard. If offers much better typing than an iPhone 4 and infinitely better than Androids.
- DaveBowman 15y ago
  The Palm Pixi is not a slider, and I love it.
  - barkerja 15y ago
    But it is terrrrrribly slow, even overclocked.
  - jackson71 15y ago
    The Pixi is nice as a form factor, but 1) it's incredibly old comparatively, and 2) will not officially run webOS 2.x, and especially 3.x. I know others who loved the form factor and feel of the Pixi; I'm hoping HP decides to throw them a bone in the future to get them back.
zcid 15y ago
I loved my Pre when I was still with Sprint. By far the most enjoyable to use out of all the phones I've had. My biggest complaint was (and still is) the lack of applications. If HP is able increase their app library, they will quite possibly find me buying another WebOS device. I really hope they succeed if only because of the openness of their phones. It feels amazing to have full access to your device out of the box without having to jump through 1.5 million jailbreak hoops.
Argorak 15y ago
Why Geeks should hate HP WebOS: Only one recent device (at the moment) and it is carrier exclusive in most countries (for me, in germany). I like the new devices and the operating system, but sadly, I also have a good contract with a different carrier. So: sorry HP, but i'll pass. I never bought a locked phone and I will not start because of your hypergeeky operating system.
- p1itopre 15y ago
  You have been able to buy the unlocked Pre2 for quite some time: http://www.shopping.hp.com/store/product/product_detail/FB324AA%2523ABA/ http://www.shopping.hp.com/store/product/product_detail/FB32... There are lots of reasons to avoid webos; but this is not one.
  - Argorak 15y ago
    I said recent device. I am not interested in buying last years model if all they push at the moment is the new line of products. How should I develop applications for their new and shiny line, if I cannot even get a fully working device on my contract?
    - aidenn0 15y ago
      Pre2 is the most recent phone you can buy with any carrier in the US right now.
      - Argorak 15y ago
        You surely haven't missed the fact that the current advertisement push of HP is not about the Pre 2 though, but about the new lineup which starts to be on sale from next sunday on (starting with the HP Veer, followed by the Pre 3 and the Tablet which integrates with those two). So yes: technically, it is the most recent. Practically, only for 3 more days.
benjoffe 15y ago
Wow, browsing that site from my phone is a crippling experience, they have this: <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0, maximum-scale=1.0, user-scalable=0" /> ..yet they haven't actually optimized the site properly for a small display, meaning it's not actually possible to scroll/zoom to see any full line of text (tested on iPhone).
- unwiredben 15y ago
  I've passed this on to our dev portal design team. I hope we can get a fix for the blog theme soon; the scaling broke as part of a portal redesign back in March.
- lukifer 15y ago
  Strange, it works for me on iPhone 4. You might also try two-finger scrolling, which is a hidden workaround for independently scrollable divs.
  - benjoffe 15y ago
    Tested again, seems yes I can pan sideways (not sure why I couldn't before) but still can't zoom which makes no sense when the doc is wider than the viewport.
johnrob 15y ago
Why haven't they made a tool/framework for porting WebOS apps (non-native) to iOS & android? This would be a great way to leverage their superior developer experience to get more apps on their platform.
- evangineer 15y ago
  A compatibility layer on top of say PhoneGap could do the job. There would be a bit of a performance hit I imagine though. I doubt that V8 is any faster on Android than it is on WebOS, but the added layer of abstraction would slow things down a bit on non-WebOS platforms.
- Xuzz 15y ago
  Their next app (web?) framework, Enyo, does exactly this (in fact, apps are developed in Chrome). They haven't announced the licensing options (i.e. if it will be legal to use on other platforms), but I've run the betas of it on my iPad and they work quite well. When webOS 3.0 comes out, it's really up to HP Palm if they want to allow this.
azakai 15y ago
WebOS is definitely very cool. I doubt WebOS can overtake Android or iOS at this point, but it should be a solid third place in this market (I don't think other competitors like WP7 or Bada can make it).
- irons 15y ago
  Nokia makes WP7 #3 by default. A respectable #4 by volume would be fine if WebOS has a shot at #2 in quality. #1 in quality is, I trust, sewn up for practically everyone reading this, though with disagreements at great length and volume on which name to fill in.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - azakai 15y ago
    > Nokia makes WP7 #3 by default. I don't get this argument. Nokia is big now, but why would it still be big with a completely different product, some time in the future, and after the market has changed quite a bit?
noonespecial 15y ago
I love it simply because its the best SSH experience of all of the smartphones. One click gets me the phones real terminal and then "ssh -l me whereever.com". No bogus setup screens, with each server requiring a 5 minute fill in the blank session to connect to, no menus full of special keys to transmit (most covered with the orange key), just pure .ssh/id_dsa public key in my home-dir win. Its 10x easier than the best thing on my ipad and its with me 24/7 because it also happens to be my phone. Other problems with WebOS and Pre? Sure there are. This makes up for all of them. Smartphone makers: rent-seek my terminal, you lose.
- daniel_solano 15y ago
  Have you tried Maemo? With Maemo, I can just launch an xterm and ssh to my heart's content. For that matter, I can also set up an SSH server and ssh into the device. I'm guessing Meego probably has the same support. In my experience, it's the closest experience to have a full Linux box that I can stick in my pocket.
  - superppl 15y ago
    Maemo is brilliant, except it's a dead end in favor of Meego, whose future is uncertain.
    - windsurfer 15y ago
      What's wrong with a dead end? Isn't SSH a dead end, since we haven't seen any major modifications ina while? Maemo still has SSH, it's still linux, and it's still debian. There are community projects to update software and fix bugs.
      - davidw 15y ago
        > What's wrong with a dead end? No new phones, obviously.
      - sigzero 15y ago
        SSH is in active development. It isn't a dead end at all. While Maemo/Meemo will be going the way of the dodo probably.
hrabago 15y ago
If I love one device over the other because it gives me more potential earnings, does that make me less of a geek?
- spitfire 15y ago
  No. It makes you more of a man.
lukifer 15y ago
WebOS keeps getting more and more compelling. If the hardware becomes sturdier, this could do very well, especially in the tablet space.
diamondhead 15y ago
I would love it but I can't make myself like an HP product because HP has been selling thousands frozen WindowsXP + IE6 computers to the universities in my country.
- viraptor 15y ago
  Considering how many management changes ago it was and the number of different divisions in HP, that's almost like not liking Germany today for WWII. How many years ago that happened? (IE6? must've been ~2004)
  - diamondhead 15y ago
    I wish it had been ~2004 but it has been happening since 2008. They sold that crappy computers to one of the biggest and newest university libraries in Europe. So, I have a real reason to ignore HP products even if they have great platform.
    - eropple 15y ago
      Because they sold them something they were willing to buy? Sorry, that doesn't make any sense.
      - diamondhead 15y ago
        As a coder, ethical behavior of the company behind the platform I use is very important to me.
        eropple 15y ago
        Where's your proof that this behavior was unethical? I know nonprofits and educational institutions that still require IE6 today due to various reasons, and some on XP because they haven't okayed an upgrade cycle even if they're not using it. No offense intended, but your claims are difficult to take seriously. This sounds significantly more like "I don't like that they use Microsoft" than anything to do with what kind of Microsoft software they sold. In the overwhelming majority of these cases that I've seen, there is much more going on than "derp, we're gonna give them IE6 because we're eeeeeevil." (And if that "ethical behavior" is really so important to you, you might as well just stop using computers because each and every one of them are, on one level or another, not fundamentally opposed to screwing the next guy to get ahead. Don't use Google or Yahoo. Don't use Twitter or Facebook. Don't send network packets over Cisco hardware. Don't buy Intel hardware. Don't buy AMD hardware. Don't buy nVidia graphics cards. The list goes on. Even everybody's favorite guys over at Canonical have demonstrated a willingness to screw people over, viz. the Banshee project.)
mdiep 15y ago
If HP made an iPod Touch competitor, I would buy one in a heartbeat. I don't want to buy another phone, but I'd love to have a WebOS device to play with.
- p1itopre 15y ago
  I get the feeling that HP does not care about the phone market too much. However, the table market is something they are scared will eat into their PC business. So, I expect HP to push the TouchPad with all its might. If that happens, an iPod touch device seems the next thing they will release. I am looking forward to that too!
  - yardie 15y ago
    It's not that they don't care but I get the feeling that they have conceeded the phone market to Apple and Android. All the information I've been getting lately is they are going to push into the tablet market really hard. It's still relatively untapped and (except Apple) the competition has been very slim.
- mgkimsal 15y ago
  Agreed - been saying for years that Palm screwed themselves over by trying to get in to the phone market with the Pre. They should have gone after reinventing the "PDA" market which they'd invented years earlier. Something like ipod touch with webOS 2 years ago would have, imo, allowed Palm to be a much different beast today.
  - Apocryphon 15y ago
    Agreed agreed! I don't care for a smartphone, and don't need a tablet- bring back the PDA! Palm needs to find its roots, not try to compete with Apple and Google/HTC head-on. If HP was smart, they'd step out of the fray and let Microsoft/Nokia/RIM try to deal with it.
thisuser 15y ago
but does it tether?
- newman314 15y ago
  Yes. There is even a free tethering solution. Install via Preware.
- hydian 15y ago
  It was the first device to have WiFi tethering, so yes.
- xseperator 15y ago
  If you wanna go the "official" route, you can pay VZW (and AT&T?) to have it act like a MiFi and connect up to five devices to it over WiFi. So awesome. But it does burn through batteries. The good news is...the Pre has REPLACEABLE BATTERIES! And they're cheap as hell on Amazon.
- rsanchez1 15y ago
  Even the new Veer has tethering available from AT&T. All webOS phones are capable of tethering, the older models being capable of wifi, bluetooth, and usb tethering.
bfrog 15y ago
Maybe if they made a good device that was available for my carrier of choice I'd be more willing to consider it. As it stands I have half a dozen android phones to possibly choose from and the venerable iphone. I'd love to have a webos phone if it was closer to the iphone in terms of form factor, resolution, speed, battery life etc but from what I've seen its not even close. Top it off with the fact that it seems like HP hasn't advertised a penny for the thing compared to verizon's droid adverts plastered everywhere. Honestly HP needs to team up with a carrier and make it happen in terms of marketing. Windows Phone 7 might beat out webos in terms of mindshare at this point.
antihero 15y ago
Is there any way that WebOS could be ported to Android? If they're both linux then the drivers should be fairly compatible with the respected kernel mods, right?
- wazoox 15y ago
  The interface (Luna) should be quite portable to Android, I suppose.
jallmann 15y ago
I love WebOS because it has the only sane development model of all the smartphone platforms on the market. edit: I actually think wp7/silverlight might fare well too from a dev perspective, but i haven't spent time with it yet.
- jackson71 15y ago
  WP7's suffering from its own developer adoption woes. The only problem with webOS' adoption, from my perspective as a webOS dev, has been marketing and hardware. Developing for webOS has been fun from Day One and continues to be nearly two years later. The hardware part they look to have taken care of based on the Pre 3, Veer, and Touchpad I got to see and mess with back at their Dev Reception in February, and I'm pretty sure they have the money to market the product line now.
  - barkerja 15y ago
    While the entry point is low, there are still many API's lacking which has prevented a lot of applications from being on webOS (for example, there was no mic API for the longest time).
phillijw 15y ago
I have the first Palm WebOS device. I also paid to be a developer. Thanks to my early adoption, I no longer receive WebOS updates so I can't really even develop for WebOS 2.0. So... I'll be switching to android. On a lighter note, I think WebOS is innovative in many ways but it hasn't quite gotten enough traction for it to be competitive to the bigger smartphones unfortunately.
jsz0 15y ago
I was hoping Palm would eventually license WebOS to companies that could make better hardware and offer more desirable form factors. WebOS is nice but the original Pre was just truly awful hardware. Under powered, fragile, terrible keyboard, screen was too small, etc. It doesn't look like the other WebOS devices released since have really improved on this much. Unfortunately HP would never consider licensing so hopefully they at least look at the SmartPhone market and realize people seem to like slim devices with high resolution screens. Big fat sliders with small low resolution screens have a very limited market these days.
- rsanchez1 15y ago
  The Pre 2 is a huge improvement over the original Pre and its upgraded Plus version. It's just that no one ever cared enough to sell it.
- potatolicious 15y ago
  I agree, but this is a problem that plagues Android too, though it's slowly getting better. Even now though, hold an iPhone 4 in one hand, and hold the Nexus S in the other. Both are fine, fast phones with a wide array of features... but one feels plasticky and cheap, while the other feels solid, almost as if it was hewn out of a solid piece of glass. Samsung, LG, et al really need to get their shit together. Apple sets a very high bar for manufacturing precision, materials use, and industrial design. I feel like the OEMs are slowly getting the design aspect sorted out, but every time I see a new Android device I can't help but be disappointed at the cheap materials and generally good-but-not-great assembly.
  - trezor 15y ago
    Even now though, hold an iPhone 4 in one hand, and hold the Nexus S in the other. Both are fine, fast phones with a wide array of features... But one feels dated, awkward and like it belongs 5 years ago with some light finishing polish to cover it up. Seriously dated. Do. Not. Want. Samsung doesn't need to get their shit together. Just look at the Samsung Galaxy S II preorders. They are the highest ever recovered for any device. I think Samsung is doing just fine with their so-called "cheap-feeling" phone. So sure. If things like the physical finish matters more to you than the actual capabilities of the device, then sure, continue buying Apple stuff. In a world where every competitor is cheaper, more open and offers more choice, this is really the only reason one could possibly have for choosing Apple these days.
slowpoison 15y ago
If HP really wants developers behind it, they should consider giving away these devices to the developers. Even a $500 phone is a cheap investment with high returns, when made on a developer who's going to invest time (and money), is going to learn mostly by herself, and release an app in the market, even if in the hopes of making money for herself. With Android already doing well, I don't see a developer risking her time as well as money on Palm, when it's uncertain how much success she'll achieve.
- rsanchez1 15y ago
  They were giving away Pre 2's. They probably still are giving them away if they still have them in stock.
  - jackson71 15y ago
    According to the HP webOS Developer Forums' Hardware Section, the offer's done. In fact, a lot of developers who took part are still waiting for theirs from back in February/March. The Pre 2 giveaway to developers really could have been executed better, IMO. Some folks who were approved back then don't even know if they'll still get one, which is disconcerting. Google can drop 5,000 special-edition Samsung tablets in a day, and HP's had almost three months to fulfill. I respect that they could have just not given any away in the first place, but HP's in a critical spot right now trying to keep webOS relevant with developers--especially given that many in the first wave of webOS developers from '09-'10 have already long left the platform. Better communication on the status of the program and fulfillment would have gone a long way. I'm really hoping they can work the kinks out of the system when it comes to things like this with the resources HP has on-hand.
    - newman314 15y ago
      If anything, that's the single biggest problem with HP / Palm. Execution is extremely shoddy. That and what seems like low attention span sometimes.
    - yardie 15y ago
freshrap6 15y ago
I too am a big WebOS fan. So much so, I'm learning web development so that I can write some apps to help populate its market.
jinushaun 15y ago
I've always had a soft spot for WebOS and still prefer it over Android and WP7. However, Palm gimped themselves by making it Sprint exclusive and putting the OS on cheap plastic hardware.
- rsanchez1 15y ago
  They released all their phones to AT&T and Verizon shortly after the Sprint exclusive. The Pre 2, vastly improved over the Pre, was formerly available only as a GSM unlocked device, and now on Verizon. The Veer is an AT&T exclusive. Sprint distanced itself from webOS a long time ago.
  - strmpnk 15y ago
    By "shortly after" you mean 1 year after, I take it? Which also makes that available just under a year on AT&T today as well. So it hasn't really been that long and now we are hearing about a new OS and new hardware. Not sure I know anyone that would pay $150 for an outdated phone.
    - rsanchez1 15y ago
      The point was it's not a Sprint exclusive.
billmcneale 15y ago
Pretty much every single point applies to Android as well, and if you have to pick based on mind share and momentum...
michaelpinto 15y ago
You know what's lacking from this list? A killer feature that both Android or iOS lacks. And that doesn't just have to be software, it can be the backing of other high profile manufacturers or a super low price point. The problem is that when you don't have market share you have to have bells and whistles the get geeks excited. I love HP as a company, and they're great as making stuff — but making an operating system is a different ball game of sorts.
- unwiredben 15y ago
  Good point... if I was writing this again, I'd mention the Synergy system that ties in data sources from email, contacts, and calendar sites online into the core webOS PIM apps, giving you a unified view of everything. I didn't list it because it's a bit hard to build on, but I feel like it's the stand out feature. Oh, and really nice multitasking. Effortless app management... but those are more user concerns.
  - newman314 15y ago
    Well, now that the Google Tasks API is out, that should get integrated too. Synergy is a great idea and it works for the most part. Still needs improvement though as some calendars have issues syncing.
  - metageek 15y ago
    My HTC phone does that for contacts; not sure whether that's Android or HTC Sense.
- grayrest 15y ago
  The killer feature for me is that you can patch the builtin apps. The WebOS OSS community is actually pretty cohesive and have their own market with a subcategory for system patches. You install it like any other app and it runs patch in the background, restart the phone and the patch is applied. After owning an android device for a year, I've come to realize the only features I use are directions, web, mail, and Kindle. I regularly dislike/want one particular feature in these apps and feel that I can get them to work how I want if I can patch so I'll be switching over when I get a new phone. I'm in the early access program and I've spent a couple weekends on it. Waiting on clarification on Enyo's licensing (i.e. can I use it as a baseline for cross platform apps) which has not been forthcoming before actually investing in the platform. I've been asking about Enyo licensing at events since January and nobody will say.
harvestgrand 15y ago
Are you stuck with the hp app store or can you go to places like apptown?
- unwiredben 15y ago
  For purchasing apps, you use the HP App Catalog, but you can easily sideload applications using the developer tools, and that can install alternative catalogs like PreWare.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - rsanchez1 15y ago
    Easily for developers, but there's no easy option for consumers in general to sideload apps on their phones without having to download separate software. For Android, all someone has to do to sideload an app is download it through the browser.
GeneralMaximus 15y ago
sigh I remember getting excited when the Pre first came out. Sadly, it wasn't available in India. It still isn't. This is why Android will take over the mobile world: it's ubiquitous. Also, Samsung and HTC, the two largest players in the Android market, actually care about markets other than the USA and Europe. The Galaxy S II, for example, will launch in 120 countries.
- rrrazdan 15y ago
  True, why would I want to get an iPhone when I know it won't be serviced in India. India is a very smartphone hungry market, and Apple is doing itself a great disservice by not selling here. PS:- Apple does sell, iPhone 3GS and iPad 2 in India. Except the iPhone, every other product is available within a week of the US launch. So the iPhone situation is quite strange.
comex 15y ago
"You don’t have to jailbreak or root your device. What other platforms call jailbreaking or rooting, we call entering developer mode." As an iOS jailbreaker, <3 I mean, it removes a bit of the fun, but still. I ought to get a Pre.
- jackson71 15y ago
  Having had a Pre since the day Sprint launched it in 2009, it's truly a hackerphone for those that want to customize their experience, and one of the primary reasons I've evangelized the platform and my experience developing for and tinkering with it to all the developer friends of mine that'd listen. They got it right from the start. No bootloader crap or jailbreaking necessary. Preware from webOS Internals is just icing on the cake.
  - firefoxman1 15y ago
    And all user-made the patches available make the phone so much better
blub 15y ago
Just as Intel's AppUp, they require Paypal, which I've canceled and don't want to use any more.
- VMG 15y ago
  If you are trying to convince others to cancel paypal, you are not doing a good job.
c00p3r 15y ago
Since apps are written in JS - end of all illusions.. ^_^
wazoox 15y ago
I love WebOS. My DSL line just dropped this morning, and I'm using the WiFi hotspot built into my Pre to read HN. The 3G link is only slightly slower for web browsing (2.3 Mbps down, 330 kpbs up).
Tomek_ 15y ago
So when those new phones they showed some months ago at Mobile World Congress are coming out?
- rsanchez1 15y ago
  Veer is coming this Sunday. The other devices are probably coming next month, but probably a little later.
raghava 15y ago
> There’s no cost to become a developer. But there is, to submit (signed) apps? https://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_register&view=register&info https://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_register&#38... says "Benefits include: Enroll in the webOS Developer program ($99/year; covers up to xx application submissions) Submit you webOS application(s) for review and approval by Palm" Am sure am missing something. Also, these devices are too costly for geeks on other side of planet, if at all they are launched here.
- yardie 15y ago
  Enrollment is free for the time being. I guess this is just an out of date page. They make it very clear that you don't have to pay anything, but this may change in the future (I assume once they get enough developers to justify having to pay full-time app reviewers). If you go through the registration process the checkout is $.00.
- unwiredben 15y ago
  Thanks for pointing out the old text. When we originally opened the dev program, there was a fee for submitting apps, but this has all be eliminated in the last year.
gcb 15y ago
adoption is so low gsmarena doesn't even list on the advanced search OS list...
45g 15y ago
WebOS is not open source so I fail to see why a "geek" should love it. On the contrary - they should avoid it!
- tintin 15y ago
  You sound a bit like Stallman. Even if you are using open source software you still use closed source hardware most of the time. What's really wrong with closed source?
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- rsanchez1 15y ago
  A lot of important components are open source. These open source components are used to allow overclocking among other things. Plus, Android isn't exactly sticking to open source at the moment, as Google keeps pushing back the Honeycomb source release.
- hydian 15y ago
  Funny thing...it is more open than the open source alternative.
moeffju 15y ago
I really want to like WebOS. I did when the original Pre came out, but the hardware was only so-so and the marketing was too little. Now, the new hardware looks really slick and the Enyo framework is super powerful. Again I was happy... Until I tried to sign up in their dev center. It's a many step process during which you have to register with the IRS, for example. Then you have to email them and ask for access to the Enyo SDK. Then they send you a form letter back. I have lost almost all interest by now. Palm... I really want to like you. Don't make it so hard.
- aidenn0 15y ago
  I think that's just the early-access for Enyo. I signed up for the current SDK and I had everything in about 5 minutes.
- rsanchez1 15y ago
  You only have to do that for the Enyo early access program. If you just wanted to check it out, you could register without having to provide IRS information. You can enter your IRS information later when you want to upload apps. Also, if you just want access to the current SDK and emulator, you wouldn't even need to register. You just need to go through the extra steps for Enyo because it is currently under NDA.
- deepGem 15y ago
  You need to fill in the tax crap if u want the developer access and the Enyo early access. In other words if you are hoping to get any revenues from your apps. You also need a paypal account. Just for the SDK you can stick to the community member level.

294 points by unwiredben 15y ago

I consider "geek" an insult.

#5: The source is easy to find. Does this mean that all apps' source is accessible, or just Palm namespaced applications?

unwiredben 15y ago
PDK application are compiled C++, so you only have object code. Most of the apps HP ships on device are JS apps, so source is there. A developer can choose to only ship minified/obfuscated source code if they want, but there still has to be something for V8 to parse and execute.
- barkerja 15y ago
  Right, I understand that but what I'm getting at is: if I create an application that is purely JS/HTML/CSS based, will my source be available to other developers that put their phone into "developer mode"? If so, is there any way to make it not publicly available?
  - unwiredben 15y ago
    No, there's no way to completely hide the source. However, we do have a key manager API that can be used to hide encryption keys so they're not exposed in your source.
rmxdave 15y ago
All non-PDK apps are viewable.

brianwillis 15y ago

Just tap on the “Just Type” search bar and enter “upupdowndownleftrightleftrightbastart” (the classic NES Konami code!); an icon appears that lets you toggle this mode on and off. Wait, really? If that's not a joke, then it's kind of cool.

ortatherox 15y ago
yeah, this entire thing has kinda impressed me, I'm on the lookout for a new ATM, may look into this
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
gkatsev 15y ago
Yep, the konami code to get into dev mode has been in webos since the very beginning. I am talking webos 1.0. Also, WebOs is great. I really like it and the UI but so far the devices have been fairly unimpressive. The original Palm Pre was good for about 3 months. After which android and iphone have gotten so many updates. If the Palm Pre 3 lives up to it's ideal, it would definitely be worth a look but unfortunately, as cool as the OS is, the hardware just doesn't match.
- rbanffy 15y ago
  I am quite happy with my Pre 2 (a gift by the developer program - they aren't sold in Brazil). There are a couple issues, as it appears to have never been tested here - GPS seems slow and may have a bug in its software, various reception weirdnesses (hard to get it to use 3G), but, overall, it's a very solid and responsive phone. I expect the 3 to up that a notch. Right now, I prefer it over iPhone and Android, as actually doing things (as opposed as to opening programs) happens more fluidly.
- atourgates 15y ago
  I was deeply in love with WebOS on my 1st gen Pre. But - like you noted - the hardware was disappointing, and the Pre 2 should have been the Pre 1.5. Even a year after switching to the iPhone 4 - there are still things I miss about my Pre's UI. If I could get WebOS on iPhone quality hardware, I'd be there in a second.

treorock 15y ago

1. Ares 2. Cards 3. Notifications 4. Just Type 5. Exhibition 6. OTA updates 7. Gestures 8. Synergy 9. The WebOS community 10. WebOS Internals

firefoxman1 15y ago
Wow, I hadn't seen Ares before. An in-browser SDK. Sweet. Honestly, WebOS itself is way better than android or iOS, it's just that Palm sucked at marketing it, the Pre was only available on Sprint, they didn't attract many app developers, and they only sold 2 WebOS phones. I hope it's not too late for HP to fix it. Between the gestures, notifications, card-based multitasking, and JS/CSS/HTML apps I'm in heaven.
- martingordon 15y ago
  Not only can you design and code your app from the browser, you have full debugging support in the browser that can remote debug on a physical device that's plugged in to the computer. I love iOS and its SDK, but Ares sure beats 4 GB Xcode updates.
  - firefoxman1 15y ago
    Wow. I will definitely be making a WebOS app now. It's really too bad Palm didn't think of Ares. It could have definitely changed the game.
    - unwiredben 15y ago
      Actually, Ares has been available for over a year now -- the technology team behind it has been building our new Enyo framework for websOS 3.0.

treorock 15y ago

1. Ares 2. Cards 3. Notifications 4. Just Type 5. Exhibition 6. OTA updates 7. Gestures 8. Synergy 9. The WebOS community 10. WebOS Internals

m0hit 15y ago

if only there was a good (and hopefully cheap) hardware device to go with webOS, it would definitely be cool to hack with. The Palm Pre, however, in my opinion did not function as a useful device, mostly because of the hardware (and lack of applications compared to iOS and android devices).

mhd 15y ago
Care to elaborate on the hardware? Speed seemed decent enough (compared with e.g. the first iPhone) and I personally really liked the "pebble" form factor. Sad that it'll never see webOS 2...
- warthogkernel 15y ago
  webOS 2.1 can be installed on the Pre if you make use of the Meta-Doctor. Some additional hoops to jump through but it's entirely doable along with overclocking, you end up with a pretty snappy device. http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/WebOS_2_Upgrade http://www.webos-internals.org/wiki/WebOS_2_Upgrade
  - jackson71 15y ago
    You want to be working on current-gen hardware if you're baselining future development efforts at 2.x going forward. What you don't want to be using as your sole dev/test unit is a two year-old device using an unofficial workaround to get an OS version installed that was never intended to be used on it. It's fine if you want to support those people that decided to use the workaround by having one of these franken-units around as a secondary edge-case device to test on, but it should never be the only device you use to develop and test with. I have a 1Ghz overclocked Sprint Pre at 1.4.5 as my "daily driver" and another Sprint Pre I've upgraded to 2.0 for testing such cases.
unwiredben 15y ago
Our new HP Veer phone with webOS is launching on AT&T next week. PreCentral reports a pretty good deal for people signing a new contract - http://www.precentral.net/white-ATT-veer-be-free-best-buy-available-in-store-pre-order http://www.precentral.net/white-ATT-veer-be-free-best-buy-av....

blinkingled 15y ago

webOS sorely needs Galaxy S2 class hardware. HP should stop all else and get a slick device out like yesterday.

evangineer 15y ago
One of my main issues with WebOS from day one has been the lack of what I would regard as decent hardware. Another issue in the past, which I hope has much improved since is the developer outreach which really sucked when I tried to engage. This was pre-HP acquisition. The fact that @unwiredben is active in this discussion is a good sign.
- warthogkernel 15y ago
  The Pre actually had decent hardware except for being light on mem. The OMAP chip was particularly overclock friendly and once overclocked along with some additional tweaks was nice and fast. The problem was the earlier webOS versions had no GPU acceleration at all and ended seeming sluggish sometimes.
  - blinkingled 15y ago
    It needs a bigger form factor in slicker package - CPU/GPU matter but not as much as form factor for the Pre atm. Having the tiny Pre screen does little justice to webOS. If they could get a SGS2 or Atrix type device out with GPU accelerated webOS UI and may be ship Android compatibility until webOS apps catch up - it would become a really credible player.
    - evangineer 15y ago
      Yes, I should have been more precise. I've never liked the form factor and packaging of the WebOS devices. TouchPad looks like it might be up to scratch, but still nothing that looks good to me on the horizon in terms of the handset.
  - yardie 15y ago
    I have an old Sprint Pre and a Pre2. Even with the it clocked to 1.1GHz and an increase in the compcache the difference is quite noticeable. The Pre2 absolutely trounces it in performance. That extra 256MB makes a big difference.

eekfuh 15y ago

#7: You can try cutting edge stuff. Yet you can't even do css background gradients. Real cutting edge.

DougReeder 15y ago
CSS background gradients are visually appealing, but I'm not sure that's what users want to spend the ergs in their mobile device battery on.
- keyle 15y ago
  I think it's about having the choice.
catshirt 15y ago
css gradients are the qualifier for "cutting edge"?
unwiredben 15y ago
Gradients are working much better in webOS 3.0, coming on the HP TouchPad
rsanchez1 15y ago
Running native C/C++ code is pretty cutting-edge stuff. It's essentially the Chrome Native Client, on mobile. I've developed a pretty nice app using a native plugin. Unfortunately, most current webOS users won't get to use it because, although the PDK was released last year and, at least for my app, hybrids work perfectly on all webOS devices running at least webOS 1.4.5, Palm (and now HP) has decided to restrict hybrid apps in the app catalog only to webOS 2.1 users, which are very few and far between right now.
eekfuh 15y ago
Defending myself against the down voters: The fact is, I am a webos developer and have been asking for this feature since 2009. It's been in webkit for the longest time and Palm have said they'll add it in, many times and never have. Major let down.

dpio 15y ago

Looking forward to the Pre 3.

plainOldText 15y ago

I think WebOS is great. But all the Palm devices are sliders which kinda sucks. I wish they'd come up with something comparable with Nexus S or iPhone 4. A simple, but cool nice little piece of smartphone. But, that's just me.

rbanffy 15y ago
I actually like the slider keyboard. If offers much better typing than an iPhone 4 and infinitely better than Androids.
DaveBowman 15y ago
The Palm Pixi is not a slider, and I love it.
- barkerja 15y ago
  But it is terrrrrribly slow, even overclocked.
- jackson71 15y ago
  The Pixi is nice as a form factor, but 1) it's incredibly old comparatively, and 2) will not officially run webOS 2.x, and especially 3.x. I know others who loved the form factor and feel of the Pixi; I'm hoping HP decides to throw them a bone in the future to get them back.

zcid 15y ago

I loved my Pre when I was still with Sprint. By far the most enjoyable to use out of all the phones I've had. My biggest complaint was (and still is) the lack of applications. If HP is able increase their app library, they will quite possibly find me buying another WebOS device. I really hope they succeed if only because of the openness of their phones. It feels amazing to have full access to your device out of the box without having to jump through 1.5 million jailbreak hoops.

Argorak 15y ago

Why Geeks should hate HP WebOS: Only one recent device (at the moment) and it is carrier exclusive in most countries (for me, in germany). I like the new devices and the operating system, but sadly, I also have a good contract with a different carrier. So: sorry HP, but i'll pass. I never bought a locked phone and I will not start because of your hypergeeky operating system.

p1itopre 15y ago
You have been able to buy the unlocked Pre2 for quite some time: http://www.shopping.hp.com/store/product/product_detail/FB324AA%2523ABA/ http://www.shopping.hp.com/store/product/product_detail/FB32... There are lots of reasons to avoid webos; but this is not one.
- Argorak 15y ago
  I said recent device. I am not interested in buying last years model if all they push at the moment is the new line of products. How should I develop applications for their new and shiny line, if I cannot even get a fully working device on my contract?
  - aidenn0 15y ago
    Pre2 is the most recent phone you can buy with any carrier in the US right now.
    - Argorak 15y ago
      You surely haven't missed the fact that the current advertisement push of HP is not about the Pre 2 though, but about the new lineup which starts to be on sale from next sunday on (starting with the HP Veer, followed by the Pre 3 and the Tablet which integrates with those two). So yes: technically, it is the most recent. Practically, only for 3 more days.

benjoffe 15y ago

Wow, browsing that site from my phone is a crippling experience, they have this: <meta name="viewport" content="width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0, maximum-scale=1.0, user-scalable=0" /> ..yet they haven't actually optimized the site properly for a small display, meaning it's not actually possible to scroll/zoom to see any full line of text (tested on iPhone).

unwiredben 15y ago
I've passed this on to our dev portal design team. I hope we can get a fix for the blog theme soon; the scaling broke as part of a portal redesign back in March.
lukifer 15y ago
Strange, it works for me on iPhone 4. You might also try two-finger scrolling, which is a hidden workaround for independently scrollable divs.
- benjoffe 15y ago
  Tested again, seems yes I can pan sideways (not sure why I couldn't before) but still can't zoom which makes no sense when the doc is wider than the viewport.

johnrob 15y ago

Why haven't they made a tool/framework for porting WebOS apps (non-native) to iOS & android? This would be a great way to leverage their superior developer experience to get more apps on their platform.

evangineer 15y ago
A compatibility layer on top of say PhoneGap could do the job. There would be a bit of a performance hit I imagine though. I doubt that V8 is any faster on Android than it is on WebOS, but the added layer of abstraction would slow things down a bit on non-WebOS platforms.
Xuzz 15y ago
Their next app (web?) framework, Enyo, does exactly this (in fact, apps are developed in Chrome). They haven't announced the licensing options (i.e. if it will be legal to use on other platforms), but I've run the betas of it on my iPad and they work quite well. When webOS 3.0 comes out, it's really up to HP Palm if they want to allow this.

azakai 15y ago

WebOS is definitely very cool. I doubt WebOS can overtake Android or iOS at this point, but it should be a solid third place in this market (I don't think other competitors like WP7 or Bada can make it).

irons 15y ago
Nokia makes WP7 #3 by default. A respectable #4 by volume would be fine if WebOS has a shot at #2 in quality. #1 in quality is, I trust, sewn up for practically everyone reading this, though with disagreements at great length and volume on which name to fill in.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- azakai 15y ago
  > Nokia makes WP7 #3 by default. I don't get this argument. Nokia is big now, but why would it still be big with a completely different product, some time in the future, and after the market has changed quite a bit?

noonespecial 15y ago

I love it simply because its the best SSH experience of all of the smartphones. One click gets me the phones real terminal and then "ssh -l me whereever.com". No bogus setup screens, with each server requiring a 5 minute fill in the blank session to connect to, no menus full of special keys to transmit (most covered with the orange key), just pure .ssh/id_dsa public key in my home-dir win. Its 10x easier than the best thing on my ipad and its with me 24/7 because it also happens to be my phone. Other problems with WebOS and Pre? Sure there are. This makes up for all of them. Smartphone makers: rent-seek my terminal, you lose.

daniel_solano 15y ago
Have you tried Maemo? With Maemo, I can just launch an xterm and ssh to my heart's content. For that matter, I can also set up an SSH server and ssh into the device. I'm guessing Meego probably has the same support. In my experience, it's the closest experience to have a full Linux box that I can stick in my pocket.
- superppl 15y ago
  Maemo is brilliant, except it's a dead end in favor of Meego, whose future is uncertain.
  - windsurfer 15y ago
    What's wrong with a dead end? Isn't SSH a dead end, since we haven't seen any major modifications ina while? Maemo still has SSH, it's still linux, and it's still debian. There are community projects to update software and fix bugs.
    - davidw 15y ago
      > What's wrong with a dead end? No new phones, obviously.
    - sigzero 15y ago
      SSH is in active development. It isn't a dead end at all. While Maemo/Meemo will be going the way of the dodo probably.

hrabago 15y ago

If I love one device over the other because it gives me more potential earnings, does that make me less of a geek?

spitfire 15y ago
No. It makes you more of a man.

lukifer 15y ago

WebOS keeps getting more and more compelling. If the hardware becomes sturdier, this could do very well, especially in the tablet space.

diamondhead 15y ago

I would love it but I can't make myself like an HP product because HP has been selling thousands frozen WindowsXP + IE6 computers to the universities in my country.

viraptor 15y ago
Considering how many management changes ago it was and the number of different divisions in HP, that's almost like not liking Germany today for WWII. How many years ago that happened? (IE6? must've been ~2004)
- diamondhead 15y ago
  I wish it had been ~2004 but it has been happening since 2008. They sold that crappy computers to one of the biggest and newest university libraries in Europe. So, I have a real reason to ignore HP products even if they have great platform.
  - eropple 15y ago
    Because they sold them something they were willing to buy? Sorry, that doesn't make any sense.
    - diamondhead 15y ago
      As a coder, ethical behavior of the company behind the platform I use is very important to me.
      - eropple 15y ago
        Where's your proof that this behavior was unethical? I know nonprofits and educational institutions that still require IE6 today due to various reasons, and some on XP because they haven't okayed an upgrade cycle even if they're not using it. No offense intended, but your claims are difficult to take seriously. This sounds significantly more like "I don't like that they use Microsoft" than anything to do with what kind of Microsoft software they sold. In the overwhelming majority of these cases that I've seen, there is much more going on than "derp, we're gonna give them IE6 because we're eeeeeevil." (And if that "ethical behavior" is really so important to you, you might as well just stop using computers because each and every one of them are, on one level or another, not fundamentally opposed to screwing the next guy to get ahead. Don't use Google or Yahoo. Don't use Twitter or Facebook. Don't send network packets over Cisco hardware. Don't buy Intel hardware. Don't buy AMD hardware. Don't buy nVidia graphics cards. The list goes on. Even everybody's favorite guys over at Canonical have demonstrated a willingness to screw people over, viz. the Banshee project.)

mdiep 15y ago

If HP made an iPod Touch competitor, I would buy one in a heartbeat. I don't want to buy another phone, but I'd love to have a WebOS device to play with.

p1itopre 15y ago
I get the feeling that HP does not care about the phone market too much. However, the table market is something they are scared will eat into their PC business. So, I expect HP to push the TouchPad with all its might. If that happens, an iPod touch device seems the next thing they will release. I am looking forward to that too!
- yardie 15y ago
  It's not that they don't care but I get the feeling that they have conceeded the phone market to Apple and Android. All the information I've been getting lately is they are going to push into the tablet market really hard. It's still relatively untapped and (except Apple) the competition has been very slim.
mgkimsal 15y ago
Agreed - been saying for years that Palm screwed themselves over by trying to get in to the phone market with the Pre. They should have gone after reinventing the "PDA" market which they'd invented years earlier. Something like ipod touch with webOS 2 years ago would have, imo, allowed Palm to be a much different beast today.
- Apocryphon 15y ago
  Agreed agreed! I don't care for a smartphone, and don't need a tablet- bring back the PDA! Palm needs to find its roots, not try to compete with Apple and Google/HTC head-on. If HP was smart, they'd step out of the fray and let Microsoft/Nokia/RIM try to deal with it.

thisuser 15y ago

but does it tether?

newman314 15y ago
Yes. There is even a free tethering solution. Install via Preware.
hydian 15y ago
It was the first device to have WiFi tethering, so yes.
xseperator 15y ago
If you wanna go the "official" route, you can pay VZW (and AT&T?) to have it act like a MiFi and connect up to five devices to it over WiFi. So awesome. But it does burn through batteries. The good news is...the Pre has REPLACEABLE BATTERIES! And they're cheap as hell on Amazon.
rsanchez1 15y ago
Even the new Veer has tethering available from AT&T. All webOS phones are capable of tethering, the older models being capable of wifi, bluetooth, and usb tethering.

bfrog 15y ago

Maybe if they made a good device that was available for my carrier of choice I'd be more willing to consider it. As it stands I have half a dozen android phones to possibly choose from and the venerable iphone. I'd love to have a webos phone if it was closer to the iphone in terms of form factor, resolution, speed, battery life etc but from what I've seen its not even close. Top it off with the fact that it seems like HP hasn't advertised a penny for the thing compared to verizon's droid adverts plastered everywhere. Honestly HP needs to team up with a carrier and make it happen in terms of marketing. Windows Phone 7 might beat out webos in terms of mindshare at this point.

antihero 15y ago

Is there any way that WebOS could be ported to Android? If they're both linux then the drivers should be fairly compatible with the respected kernel mods, right?

wazoox 15y ago
The interface (Luna) should be quite portable to Android, I suppose.

jallmann 15y ago

I love WebOS because it has the only sane development model of all the smartphone platforms on the market. edit: I actually think wp7/silverlight might fare well too from a dev perspective, but i haven't spent time with it yet.

jackson71 15y ago
WP7's suffering from its own developer adoption woes. The only problem with webOS' adoption, from my perspective as a webOS dev, has been marketing and hardware. Developing for webOS has been fun from Day One and continues to be nearly two years later. The hardware part they look to have taken care of based on the Pre 3, Veer, and Touchpad I got to see and mess with back at their Dev Reception in February, and I'm pretty sure they have the money to market the product line now.
- barkerja 15y ago
  While the entry point is low, there are still many API's lacking which has prevented a lot of applications from being on webOS (for example, there was no mic API for the longest time).

phillijw 15y ago

I have the first Palm WebOS device. I also paid to be a developer. Thanks to my early adoption, I no longer receive WebOS updates so I can't really even develop for WebOS 2.0. So... I'll be switching to android. On a lighter note, I think WebOS is innovative in many ways but it hasn't quite gotten enough traction for it to be competitive to the bigger smartphones unfortunately.

jsz0 15y ago

I was hoping Palm would eventually license WebOS to companies that could make better hardware and offer more desirable form factors. WebOS is nice but the original Pre was just truly awful hardware. Under powered, fragile, terrible keyboard, screen was too small, etc. It doesn't look like the other WebOS devices released since have really improved on this much. Unfortunately HP would never consider licensing so hopefully they at least look at the SmartPhone market and realize people seem to like slim devices with high resolution screens. Big fat sliders with small low resolution screens have a very limited market these days.

rsanchez1 15y ago
The Pre 2 is a huge improvement over the original Pre and its upgraded Plus version. It's just that no one ever cared enough to sell it.
potatolicious 15y ago
I agree, but this is a problem that plagues Android too, though it's slowly getting better. Even now though, hold an iPhone 4 in one hand, and hold the Nexus S in the other. Both are fine, fast phones with a wide array of features... but one feels plasticky and cheap, while the other feels solid, almost as if it was hewn out of a solid piece of glass. Samsung, LG, et al really need to get their shit together. Apple sets a very high bar for manufacturing precision, materials use, and industrial design. I feel like the OEMs are slowly getting the design aspect sorted out, but every time I see a new Android device I can't help but be disappointed at the cheap materials and generally good-but-not-great assembly.
- trezor 15y ago
  Even now though, hold an iPhone 4 in one hand, and hold the Nexus S in the other. Both are fine, fast phones with a wide array of features... But one feels dated, awkward and like it belongs 5 years ago with some light finishing polish to cover it up. Seriously dated. Do. Not. Want. Samsung doesn't need to get their shit together. Just look at the Samsung Galaxy S II preorders. They are the highest ever recovered for any device. I think Samsung is doing just fine with their so-called "cheap-feeling" phone. So sure. If things like the physical finish matters more to you than the actual capabilities of the device, then sure, continue buying Apple stuff. In a world where every competitor is cheaper, more open and offers more choice, this is really the only reason one could possibly have for choosing Apple these days.

slowpoison 15y ago

If HP really wants developers behind it, they should consider giving away these devices to the developers. Even a $500 phone is a cheap investment with high returns, when made on a developer who's going to invest time (and money), is going to learn mostly by herself, and release an app in the market, even if in the hopes of making money for herself. With Android already doing well, I don't see a developer risking her time as well as money on Palm, when it's uncertain how much success she'll achieve.

rsanchez1 15y ago
They were giving away Pre 2's. They probably still are giving them away if they still have them in stock.
- jackson71 15y ago
  According to the HP webOS Developer Forums' Hardware Section, the offer's done. In fact, a lot of developers who took part are still waiting for theirs from back in February/March. The Pre 2 giveaway to developers really could have been executed better, IMO. Some folks who were approved back then don't even know if they'll still get one, which is disconcerting. Google can drop 5,000 special-edition Samsung tablets in a day, and HP's had almost three months to fulfill. I respect that they could have just not given any away in the first place, but HP's in a critical spot right now trying to keep webOS relevant with developers--especially given that many in the first wave of webOS developers from '09-'10 have already long left the platform. Better communication on the status of the program and fulfillment would have gone a long way. I'm really hoping they can work the kinks out of the system when it comes to things like this with the resources HP has on-hand.
  - newman314 15y ago
    If anything, that's the single biggest problem with HP / Palm. Execution is extremely shoddy. That and what seems like low attention span sometimes.
  - yardie 15y ago

freshrap6 15y ago

I too am a big WebOS fan. So much so, I'm learning web development so that I can write some apps to help populate its market.

jinushaun 15y ago

I've always had a soft spot for WebOS and still prefer it over Android and WP7. However, Palm gimped themselves by making it Sprint exclusive and putting the OS on cheap plastic hardware.

rsanchez1 15y ago
They released all their phones to AT&T and Verizon shortly after the Sprint exclusive. The Pre 2, vastly improved over the Pre, was formerly available only as a GSM unlocked device, and now on Verizon. The Veer is an AT&T exclusive. Sprint distanced itself from webOS a long time ago.
- strmpnk 15y ago
  By "shortly after" you mean 1 year after, I take it? Which also makes that available just under a year on AT&T today as well. So it hasn't really been that long and now we are hearing about a new OS and new hardware. Not sure I know anyone that would pay $150 for an outdated phone.
  - rsanchez1 15y ago
    The point was it's not a Sprint exclusive.

billmcneale 15y ago

Pretty much every single point applies to Android as well, and if you have to pick based on mind share and momentum...

michaelpinto 15y ago

You know what's lacking from this list? A killer feature that both Android or iOS lacks. And that doesn't just have to be software, it can be the backing of other high profile manufacturers or a super low price point. The problem is that when you don't have market share you have to have bells and whistles the get geeks excited. I love HP as a company, and they're great as making stuff — but making an operating system is a different ball game of sorts.

unwiredben 15y ago
Good point... if I was writing this again, I'd mention the Synergy system that ties in data sources from email, contacts, and calendar sites online into the core webOS PIM apps, giving you a unified view of everything. I didn't list it because it's a bit hard to build on, but I feel like it's the stand out feature. Oh, and really nice multitasking. Effortless app management... but those are more user concerns.
- newman314 15y ago
  Well, now that the Google Tasks API is out, that should get integrated too. Synergy is a great idea and it works for the most part. Still needs improvement though as some calendars have issues syncing.
- metageek 15y ago
  My HTC phone does that for contacts; not sure whether that's Android or HTC Sense.
grayrest 15y ago
The killer feature for me is that you can patch the builtin apps. The WebOS OSS community is actually pretty cohesive and have their own market with a subcategory for system patches. You install it like any other app and it runs patch in the background, restart the phone and the patch is applied. After owning an android device for a year, I've come to realize the only features I use are directions, web, mail, and Kindle. I regularly dislike/want one particular feature in these apps and feel that I can get them to work how I want if I can patch so I'll be switching over when I get a new phone. I'm in the early access program and I've spent a couple weekends on it. Waiting on clarification on Enyo's licensing (i.e. can I use it as a baseline for cross platform apps) which has not been forthcoming before actually investing in the platform. I've been asking about Enyo licensing at events since January and nobody will say.

harvestgrand 15y ago

Are you stuck with the hp app store or can you go to places like apptown?

unwiredben 15y ago
For purchasing apps, you use the HP App Catalog, but you can easily sideload applications using the developer tools, and that can install alternative catalogs like PreWare.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- rsanchez1 15y ago
  Easily for developers, but there's no easy option for consumers in general to sideload apps on their phones without having to download separate software. For Android, all someone has to do to sideload an app is download it through the browser.

GeneralMaximus 15y ago

sigh I remember getting excited when the Pre first came out. Sadly, it wasn't available in India. It still isn't. This is why Android will take over the mobile world: it's ubiquitous. Also, Samsung and HTC, the two largest players in the Android market, actually care about markets other than the USA and Europe. The Galaxy S II, for example, will launch in 120 countries.

rrrazdan 15y ago
True, why would I want to get an iPhone when I know it won't be serviced in India. India is a very smartphone hungry market, and Apple is doing itself a great disservice by not selling here. PS:- Apple does sell, iPhone 3GS and iPad 2 in India. Except the iPhone, every other product is available within a week of the US launch. So the iPhone situation is quite strange.

comex 15y ago

"You don’t have to jailbreak or root your device. What other platforms call jailbreaking or rooting, we call entering developer mode." As an iOS jailbreaker, <3 I mean, it removes a bit of the fun, but still. I ought to get a Pre.

jackson71 15y ago
Having had a Pre since the day Sprint launched it in 2009, it's truly a hackerphone for those that want to customize their experience, and one of the primary reasons I've evangelized the platform and my experience developing for and tinkering with it to all the developer friends of mine that'd listen. They got it right from the start. No bootloader crap or jailbreaking necessary. Preware from webOS Internals is just icing on the cake.
- firefoxman1 15y ago
  And all user-made the patches available make the phone so much better

blub 15y ago

Just as Intel's AppUp, they require Paypal, which I've canceled and don't want to use any more.

VMG 15y ago
If you are trying to convince others to cancel paypal, you are not doing a good job.

c00p3r 15y ago

Since apps are written in JS - end of all illusions.. ^_^

wazoox 15y ago

I love WebOS. My DSL line just dropped this morning, and I'm using the WiFi hotspot built into my Pre to read HN. The 3G link is only slightly slower for web browsing (2.3 Mbps down, 330 kpbs up).

Tomek_ 15y ago

So when those new phones they showed some months ago at Mobile World Congress are coming out?

rsanchez1 15y ago
Veer is coming this Sunday. The other devices are probably coming next month, but probably a little later.

raghava 15y ago

> There’s no cost to become a developer. But there is, to submit (signed) apps? https://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_register&view=register&info https://developer.palm.com/index.php?option=com_register&#38... says "Benefits include: Enroll in the webOS Developer program ($99/year; covers up to xx application submissions) Submit you webOS application(s) for review and approval by Palm" Am sure am missing something. Also, these devices are too costly for geeks on other side of planet, if at all they are launched here.

yardie 15y ago
Enrollment is free for the time being. I guess this is just an out of date page. They make it very clear that you don't have to pay anything, but this may change in the future (I assume once they get enough developers to justify having to pay full-time app reviewers). If you go through the registration process the checkout is $.00.
unwiredben 15y ago
Thanks for pointing out the old text. When we originally opened the dev program, there was a fee for submitting apps, but this has all be eliminated in the last year.

gcb 15y ago

adoption is so low gsmarena doesn't even list on the advanced search OS list...

45g 15y ago

WebOS is not open source so I fail to see why a "geek" should love it. On the contrary - they should avoid it!

tintin 15y ago
You sound a bit like Stallman. Even if you are using open source software you still use closed source hardware most of the time. What's really wrong with closed source?
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
rsanchez1 15y ago
A lot of important components are open source. These open source components are used to allow overclocking among other things. Plus, Android isn't exactly sticking to open source at the moment, as Google keeps pushing back the Honeycomb source release.
hydian 15y ago
Funny thing...it is more open than the open source alternative.

moeffju 15y ago

I really want to like WebOS. I did when the original Pre came out, but the hardware was only so-so and the marketing was too little. Now, the new hardware looks really slick and the Enyo framework is super powerful. Again I was happy... Until I tried to sign up in their dev center. It's a many step process during which you have to register with the IRS, for example. Then you have to email them and ask for access to the Enyo SDK. Then they send you a form letter back. I have lost almost all interest by now. Palm... I really want to like you. Don't make it so hard.

aidenn0 15y ago
I think that's just the early-access for Enyo. I signed up for the current SDK and I had everything in about 5 minutes.
rsanchez1 15y ago
You only have to do that for the Enyo early access program. If you just wanted to check it out, you could register without having to provide IRS information. You can enter your IRS information later when you want to upload apps. Also, if you just want access to the current SDK and emulator, you wouldn't even need to register. You just need to go through the extra steps for Enyo because it is currently under NDA.
deepGem 15y ago
You need to fill in the tax crap if u want the developer access and the Enyo early access. In other words if you are hoping to get any revenues from your apps. You also need a paypal account. Just for the SDK you can stick to the community member level.