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I do not get all the hatred. The idea behind COBOL’s syntax is the same as SQL’s: it is merely yet another “Structured English Query/Programming Language” desig

I do not get all the hatred. The idea behind COBOL’s syntax is the same as SQL’s: it is merely yet another “Structured English Query/Programming Language” designed, initially, for non-programmers to be able to describe in words what it is they would like to accomplish in a way they could be understood by the computer.

michaelcampbell 6y ago
COBOL put me through undergrad, so I'm ok with it. And, it was developed long before a lot of modern compiler theory was even thought of, so it's going to be a little unfamiliar to those used to "modern" languages.
- anoncake 6y ago
  But it was developed long after math notation was thought of.
  - rhabarba 6y ago
    I should probably post more APL news.
    - pklausler 6y ago
      Yes, please.
  - michaelcampbell 6y ago
    Sure, but you'll note they didn't name it COMOL.
    - pletnes 6y ago
      Or FORmula TRANslation?
simias 6y ago
Whose hatred? I don't think I've seen anybody really hate on COBOL, it's just mostly irrelevant for modern programmers and people like to mock the FULL CAPS ULTRA VERBOSE SYNTAX (something that COBOL programmers themselves routinely do, see ADD 1 TO COBOL GIVING COBOL).
- rhabarba 6y ago
  I disagree with your definition of modern programmers. I mean, we still emulate VT100 terminals on our 2020 MacBooks (poorly), so the implication that everything old must be renewed is - in theory - good, but COBOL is probably not the first thing that comes to my mind here... Modern COBOL does not enforce CAPS LOCK anymore though - and you can even skip the 7-columns indentation if you wish!
  - simias 6y ago
    To be clear I wasn't making a judgement of value, I was just stating matter-of-factly that I've been a professional dev for over 15 years and while I did occasionally encounter some more niche languages I haven't actually bumped into a COBOL listing if I wasn't specifically looking for it. Fortran, Scheme, Haskell, Erlang, Modula? Occasionally. COBOL, never.
    - the_only_law 6y ago
      > Modula Ok now I’m curious...
      - simias 6y ago
        FreeBSD's old CVSup was written in Modula-3: https://docs.freebsd.org/doc/3.0-RELEASE/usr/share/doc/handbook/cvsup:install.html https://docs.freebsd.org/doc/3.0-RELEASE/usr/share/doc/handb...
        the_only_law 6y ago
        Neat, I’ve been down a rabbit hole with many of Wirth’s languages a few times, but never properly learned them. I think I tried to get some Modula 2 or Modula 3 gcc frontend to work a while back with little luck.
the_af 6y ago
The hatred comes from people like me, who have worked with COBOL and will tell you it's terribly frustrating to work with, needlessly verbose in multiple places where it doesn't need to be, and often used in banks for purposes which are the death of all you hold dear or interesting to work with. COBOL is not an interesting programming language these days, and you should not learn it unless you need it for your current job. > [COBOL was] designed, initially, for non-programmers to be able to describe in words what it is they would like to accomplish in a way they could be understood by the computer. Let me tell you a secret. It doesn't work for non-programmers. The complexity of "Z = X + Y" is no more or less than "ADD X TO Y GIVING Z", and bugs will happen at the same rate with either syntax. The added verbosity will only annoy you. Another myth surrounding COBOL is that as its programmers age, there is a lack of them and therefore COBOL jobs are high-paying and you should learn it to make good money. The reality: I've never met a really wealthy COBOL programmer -- or rather, one who was wealthy because he/she knew COBOL. That's not where the money is. COBOL jobs are not particularly well-paying, and there are young people learning it, and no, they don't get awesome paychecks.
- carlmr 6y ago
  >Let me tell you a secret. It doesn't work for non-programmers. The complexity of "Z = X + Y" is no more or less than "ADD X TO Y GIVING Z", and bugs will happen at the same rate with either syntax. The added verbosity will only annoy you. Not to mention that verbosity often distracts from meaning, leading to more place for bugs to hide.
- monoideism 6y ago
  > COBOL jobs are not particularly well-paying, and there are young people learning it, and no, they don't get awesome paychecks. But say this to non-programmers, and they vehemently deny it's true. And always cite a friend of their neighbor who made it good from COBOL. It's like they need to believe there's a shortcut out there to sure wealth as long as you're smart and work hard.
- kps 6y ago
  > It doesn't work for non-programmers. It wasn't designed to work, it was designed to please senior management. Grace Hopper: “I used to be a mathematics professor. At that time I found there were a certain number of students who could not learn mathematics. I then was charged with the job of making it easy for businessmen to use our computers. I found it was not a question of whether they could learn mathematics or not, but whether they would. […] They said, ‘Throw those symbols out — I do not know what they mean, I have not time to learn symbols.’ I suggest a reply to those who would like data processing people to use mathematical symbols that they make the first attempt to teach those symbols to vice-presidents or a colonel or admiral. I assure you that I tried it.”

michaelcampbell 6y ago

COBOL put me through undergrad, so I'm ok with it. And, it was developed long before a lot of modern compiler theory was even thought of, so it's going to be a little unfamiliar to those used to "modern" languages.

anoncake 6y ago
But it was developed long after math notation was thought of.
- rhabarba 6y ago
  I should probably post more APL news.
  - pklausler 6y ago
    Yes, please.
- michaelcampbell 6y ago
  Sure, but you'll note they didn't name it COMOL.
  - pletnes 6y ago
    Or FORmula TRANslation?

simias 6y ago

Whose hatred? I don't think I've seen anybody really hate on COBOL, it's just mostly irrelevant for modern programmers and people like to mock the FULL CAPS ULTRA VERBOSE SYNTAX (something that COBOL programmers themselves routinely do, see ADD 1 TO COBOL GIVING COBOL).

rhabarba 6y ago
I disagree with your definition of modern programmers. I mean, we still emulate VT100 terminals on our 2020 MacBooks (poorly), so the implication that everything old must be renewed is - in theory - good, but COBOL is probably not the first thing that comes to my mind here... Modern COBOL does not enforce CAPS LOCK anymore though - and you can even skip the 7-columns indentation if you wish!
- simias 6y ago
  To be clear I wasn't making a judgement of value, I was just stating matter-of-factly that I've been a professional dev for over 15 years and while I did occasionally encounter some more niche languages I haven't actually bumped into a COBOL listing if I wasn't specifically looking for it. Fortran, Scheme, Haskell, Erlang, Modula? Occasionally. COBOL, never.
  - the_only_law 6y ago
    > Modula Ok now I’m curious...
    - simias 6y ago
      FreeBSD's old CVSup was written in Modula-3: https://docs.freebsd.org/doc/3.0-RELEASE/usr/share/doc/handbook/cvsup:install.html https://docs.freebsd.org/doc/3.0-RELEASE/usr/share/doc/handb...
      - the_only_law 6y ago
        Neat, I’ve been down a rabbit hole with many of Wirth’s languages a few times, but never properly learned them. I think I tried to get some Modula 2 or Modula 3 gcc frontend to work a while back with little luck.

the_af 6y ago

The hatred comes from people like me, who have worked with COBOL and will tell you it's terribly frustrating to work with, needlessly verbose in multiple places where it doesn't need to be, and often used in banks for purposes which are the death of all you hold dear or interesting to work with. COBOL is not an interesting programming language these days, and you should not learn it unless you need it for your current job. > [COBOL was] designed, initially, for non-programmers to be able to describe in words what it is they would like to accomplish in a way they could be understood by the computer. Let me tell you a secret. It doesn't work for non-programmers. The complexity of "Z = X + Y" is no more or less than "ADD X TO Y GIVING Z", and bugs will happen at the same rate with either syntax. The added verbosity will only annoy you. Another myth surrounding COBOL is that as its programmers age, there is a lack of them and therefore COBOL jobs are high-paying and you should learn it to make good money. The reality: I've never met a really wealthy COBOL programmer -- or rather, one who was wealthy because he/she knew COBOL. That's not where the money is. COBOL jobs are not particularly well-paying, and there are young people learning it, and no, they don't get awesome paychecks.

carlmr 6y ago
>Let me tell you a secret. It doesn't work for non-programmers. The complexity of "Z = X + Y" is no more or less than "ADD X TO Y GIVING Z", and bugs will happen at the same rate with either syntax. The added verbosity will only annoy you. Not to mention that verbosity often distracts from meaning, leading to more place for bugs to hide.
monoideism 6y ago
> COBOL jobs are not particularly well-paying, and there are young people learning it, and no, they don't get awesome paychecks. But say this to non-programmers, and they vehemently deny it's true. And always cite a friend of their neighbor who made it good from COBOL. It's like they need to believe there's a shortcut out there to sure wealth as long as you're smart and work hard.
kps 6y ago
> It doesn't work for non-programmers. It wasn't designed to work, it was designed to please senior management. Grace Hopper: “I used to be a mathematics professor. At that time I found there were a certain number of students who could not learn mathematics. I then was charged with the job of making it easy for businessmen to use our computers. I found it was not a question of whether they could learn mathematics or not, but whether they would. […] They said, ‘Throw those symbols out — I do not know what they mean, I have not time to learn symbols.’ I suggest a reply to those who would like data processing people to use mathematical symbols that they make the first attempt to teach those symbols to vice-presidents or a colonel or admiral. I assure you that I tried it.”