22 ms·

> How many cases of fraud has there been in this election? I haven't the foggiest idea, I'm not a cop or political-type person. > There has been 0 evidence of

> How many cases of fraud has there been in this election? I haven't the foggiest idea, I'm not a cop or political-type person. > There has been 0 evidence of widespread fraud. What kind of evidence would you expect to see? > The only possible way any argument could be made in good faith is if you have the naivete of a child. I'm not saying that as a value judgment, but as a matter of fact. How are you able to attest to that fact? > I can not prove a negative, other than the absence of evidence of the contrary. What evidence would you expect to see if YouTube had deleted a good faith video? > Do you have any examples of good faith actors being silenced that we can discuss the merits of? No because I'm not even sure how one would attest to the "good faith" of a video that is no longer on YouTube. Thats why I'm so puzzled at the certainty exhibited by people who seem determined that these videos and ideas are so dangerous that they should be suppressed. What kind of experiences and evidence would make someone so confident that they were right and they hadn't merely been misinformed? > Yes, but I have seen no evidence of this, so I reserve that hypothetical for when it happens. Wouldn't you want to have some evidence in support of your statement before you make sweeping claims? I'm trying to see how you can reconcile the part where you think these other people are bad because they make statements about reality without evidence, but you're fine with making statements about reality yourself without evidence.

croon 6y ago
> What kind of evidence would you expect to see? That any person in the long chain of people required for the type of conspiracy suggested would slip up and leave any tangible trace, have a change of heart, leak something, or that hundreds of people noticing their names had been used to vote already when they tried to, or any number of other possible evidence. > What evidence would you expect to see if YouTube had deleted a good faith video? I don't expect any Youtube video to provide evidence to begin with, I expect it in court, where over 50 cases have failed to produce a single piece of evidence. > Wouldn't you want to have some evidence in support of your statement before you make sweeping claims? I'm trying to see how you can reconcile the part where you think these other people are bad because they make statements about reality without evidence, but you're fine with making statements about reality yourself without evidence. I make statements about the reality that santa and big foot don't exist because there's never been any evidence showing they do. I accept that this is not 100% certainty, but it's absolutely reliable enough to base reality around until further notice. I'm opposing your suggestion that videos stating something very provable without any kind of evidence is the same thing as what I'm doing, and I've explained that stark difference.
- chordalkeyboard 6y ago
  Thanks for your reply. > That any person in the long chain of people required for the type of conspiracy suggested would slip up and leave any tangible trace, have a change of heart, leak something, or any person that noticed their name had been used to vote already when they tried to, or any number of other possible evidence. You haven't seen the videos [0] [1]? Interesting, did you look for them? Didn't the news report on them? Did you see the affidavits? [2] [3] [4] Or do you just interpret all of that in a way that is consistent with your belief that these are all spurious allegations by bad faith actors? > I don't expect any Youtube video to provide evidence to begin with, I expect it in court, where over 50 cases have failed to produce a single piece of evidence. Surely you understand that sworn affidavits are evidence? > I make statements about the reality that santa and big foot don't exist because there's never been any evidence showing they do. You've never seen a video purportedly of Bigfoot? Or did you interpret it as a hoax because of your priors? You've never heard of Saint Nicholas? Or do you think that he never existed because someone told you outlandish stories about him and that colored your perception of the entire thing? > I'm opposing your suggestion that videos stating something very provable without any kind of evidence is the same thing as what I'm doing, and I've explained that stark difference. You're asserting that there isn't any evidence when you're actually ignorant of evidence and defending the decision of a major corporation to prevent their platform from being used to share evidence. I'm not really keen to present evidence myself here because I think its clear that there is no such thing as evidence without interpretation, and most people (on both sides of the issue) have already decided to interpret everything in the way that justifies their biases. I'm also not convinced that there was enough fraud to change the outcome of the election (although the attorney general of Texas and 17 other states do seem to think so [5]). But there's so much purported evidence of fraud it was pretty easy to go get some links so I could disprove the notion that there hasn't been any presentation of evidence. There has been enough to raise questions about election integrity. Which is actually where these allegations of bad faith start to become really interesting because the same people saying there's no evidence are accusing people of bad faith for their arguments alleging fraud that refer to evidence. So humans being human, basically, which is why I'm actually much more interested in the epistemological and cognitive issues that arise in this case. [0] https://apelbaum.files.wordpress.com/2020/12/cctv-suite-604-11-03-2020.mp4 https://apelbaum.files.wordpress.com/2020/12/cctv-suite-604-... [1] https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2020/12/04/that-is-some-handoff-herschel-walker-shares-video-of-woman-trying-to-hide-handing-usb-drive-to-fellow-election-worker/ https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2020/12/04/that-is-some-handof... [2] https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598.1.2.pdf https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598/... [3] https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598.1.3.pdf https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598/... [4] https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598.1.5.pdf https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598/... [5] https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/images/admin/2020/Press/SCOTUSFiling.pdf https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/ima...

croon 6y ago

> What kind of evidence would you expect to see? That any person in the long chain of people required for the type of conspiracy suggested would slip up and leave any tangible trace, have a change of heart, leak something, or that hundreds of people noticing their names had been used to vote already when they tried to, or any number of other possible evidence. > What evidence would you expect to see if YouTube had deleted a good faith video? I don't expect any Youtube video to provide evidence to begin with, I expect it in court, where over 50 cases have failed to produce a single piece of evidence. > Wouldn't you want to have some evidence in support of your statement before you make sweeping claims? I'm trying to see how you can reconcile the part where you think these other people are bad because they make statements about reality without evidence, but you're fine with making statements about reality yourself without evidence. I make statements about the reality that santa and big foot don't exist because there's never been any evidence showing they do. I accept that this is not 100% certainty, but it's absolutely reliable enough to base reality around until further notice. I'm opposing your suggestion that videos stating something very provable without any kind of evidence is the same thing as what I'm doing, and I've explained that stark difference.

chordalkeyboard 6y ago
Thanks for your reply. > That any person in the long chain of people required for the type of conspiracy suggested would slip up and leave any tangible trace, have a change of heart, leak something, or any person that noticed their name had been used to vote already when they tried to, or any number of other possible evidence. You haven't seen the videos [0] [1]? Interesting, did you look for them? Didn't the news report on them? Did you see the affidavits? [2] [3] [4] Or do you just interpret all of that in a way that is consistent with your belief that these are all spurious allegations by bad faith actors? > I don't expect any Youtube video to provide evidence to begin with, I expect it in court, where over 50 cases have failed to produce a single piece of evidence. Surely you understand that sworn affidavits are evidence? > I make statements about the reality that santa and big foot don't exist because there's never been any evidence showing they do. You've never seen a video purportedly of Bigfoot? Or did you interpret it as a hoax because of your priors? You've never heard of Saint Nicholas? Or do you think that he never existed because someone told you outlandish stories about him and that colored your perception of the entire thing? > I'm opposing your suggestion that videos stating something very provable without any kind of evidence is the same thing as what I'm doing, and I've explained that stark difference. You're asserting that there isn't any evidence when you're actually ignorant of evidence and defending the decision of a major corporation to prevent their platform from being used to share evidence. I'm not really keen to present evidence myself here because I think its clear that there is no such thing as evidence without interpretation, and most people (on both sides of the issue) have already decided to interpret everything in the way that justifies their biases. I'm also not convinced that there was enough fraud to change the outcome of the election (although the attorney general of Texas and 17 other states do seem to think so [5]). But there's so much purported evidence of fraud it was pretty easy to go get some links so I could disprove the notion that there hasn't been any presentation of evidence. There has been enough to raise questions about election integrity. Which is actually where these allegations of bad faith start to become really interesting because the same people saying there's no evidence are accusing people of bad faith for their arguments alleging fraud that refer to evidence. So humans being human, basically, which is why I'm actually much more interested in the epistemological and cognitive issues that arise in this case. [0] https://apelbaum.files.wordpress.com/2020/12/cctv-suite-604-11-03-2020.mp4 https://apelbaum.files.wordpress.com/2020/12/cctv-suite-604-... [1] https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2020/12/04/that-is-some-handoff-herschel-walker-shares-video-of-woman-trying-to-hide-handing-usb-drive-to-fellow-election-worker/ https://twitchy.com/samj-3930/2020/12/04/that-is-some-handof... [2] https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598.1.2.pdf https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598/... [3] https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598.1.3.pdf https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598/... [4] https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598.1.5.pdf https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.miwd.99598/... [5] https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/images/admin/2020/Press/SCOTUSFiling.pdf https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/ima...