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[downvoters: care to explain what is wrong with asking this question? I’ve received quite a few downvotes since asking this (the points have gone up and down) y

[downvoters: care to explain what is wrong with asking this question? I’ve received quite a few downvotes since asking this (the points have gone up and down) yet no-one has tried to explain why they object to asking the question. Seems there’s lots of ideological downvoting going on.] "Disposable plastic is bad" is one of those things "everybody knows", that tends to be just accepted as true. Are there rigorous arguments for it being bad? The common arguments against them tend to be fairly shallow, IMO. I've heard that the actual issue is mostly poor waste management and recycling practices in certain countries and on ships, and that landfill isn't really a bad thing. I'm willing to hear arguments against disposable plastic.

apsurd 6y ago
i’m no export so there will be no citations. i was just thinking, the current state of plastics is they pollute oceans and jeopardize entire ecosystems. and they’re made from oil. an idealized argument for how, strictly speaking, this outcome doesn’t have to be the case, is not really that useful? we don’t really recycle plastics because it’s cheaper to just make new plastics. saying all we have to do is recycle plastics is not an actual economic solution? i never comment anymore. thought i’d give it a shot heh
- jamesrcole 6y ago
  Thank you for the response. What I’ve heard is that plastics don’t pollute, per se, its poor waste management practices. When those practices are sufficient the plastic isn’t an issue (or is much less of an issue). https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution#where-does-our-plastic-accumulate-in-the-ocean-and-what-does-that-mean-for-the-futures https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution#where-does-our-... The summary of those details from that document: “However, it is the management of plastic waste that determines the risk of plastic entering the ocean. High-income countries have very effect waste management systems; mismanaged waste – and plastic that ends up in the oceans – is therefore very rare. Poor waste management across many middle- and low-income countries means that these are the main sources of global ocean plastic pollution This makes the improvement of waste management systems across the world critical to reducing plastic pollution. An estimated 20 percent of all plastic waste in the oceans comes from marine sources. In some regions, marine sources dominate: More than half of plastics in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch (GPGP) come from fishing nets, ropes and lines”. If this is true, then the best way to address the pollution would be to address those poor practices.
  - apsurd 6y ago
    that’s helpful information to think about! thanks. in other words, there are things we can do to manage the situation we’re in. i kind of assume you’re familiar with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24714880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24714880 so that’s why i suppose i’m necessarily oriented more toward an economic-based view/incentive solution. because this plastic problem is economic capitalistic abuse/exploitation. i didn’t downvote you btw but i think your initial comment is triggering because like... nobody needs the absurds amount of shitty disposable plastic crap being created. it’s cheap and people can make a buck and it’s simple as that. anyway, thanks for the link!
woodruffw 6y ago
I think these have been repeated over and over again, but: * We don't really know what the long tail of plastic in the environment looks like. It could be relatively benign, but we're painting ourselves into a corner in terms of long-term management with our current rate of plastic production. * Plastic is a petrochemical product. Like all petrochemical products its extraction and production steps are environmentally devastating, even if the end material is relatively inert. We also like to produce it in countries with poor environmental and safety controls. * Current policies for managing plastic waste fall into two categories: we either put it in a hole and forget about it (see the long tail point above) or we externalize it to a significantly poorer country for "recycling" (read: dumping into waterways, burning as trash, putting in their own holes in the ground). The former is an unknown, the later is bad and unsustainable.
- jamesrcole 6y ago
  Thanks for the response. > * We don't really know what the long tail of plastic in the environment looks like. See my response to another reply - the problem with plastic in the environment seems primarily to do with poor waste management practices. They seem to be a better thing to address to address this issue. Could there be long tail impacts? I don’t know, but “we don’t know” is not a terribly strong argument. Surely that could also be said for lots of things other than plastic. > * Plastic is a petrochemical product. Like all petrochemical products its extraction and production steps are environmentally devastating That seems a plausible concern. We’d have to see the specific evidence about just how damaging that is, and how damaging it is relative to the alternatives. > * Current policies for managing plastic waste fall into two categories: we either put it in a hole and forget about it (see the long tail point above) I’ve hear that this isn’t actually a bad thing. For one thing, it’s localized (as in concentrated in specific areas). And surely there are ways of ensuring minimal leaching of ‘bad things’ in surrounds (potential eg: choosing a spot with appropriate groundwater). > or we externalize it to a significantly poorer country for "recycling" (read: dumping into waterways, burning as trash, putting in their own holes in the ground). The former is an unknown, the later is bad and unsustainable But then why aren’t these specific issues being targeted rather than plastics per se?
pazimzadeh 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch
- jamesrcole 6y ago
  [edit: this by itself isn’t an an argument against plastics. See the provided link with details about poor waste management practices (such as in marine vessels and certain countries). They appear to be the issue, not plastics per se] That might be a serious issue, but simply mentioning it isn’t a serious argument against plastics themselves. See https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution
southeastern 6y ago
Many plastics are known endocrine disruptors. They mimic estrogen and their exact effects on the human body are unknown. But because of the nature of plastics, the don't decompose but just break down into smaller and smaller pieces. They find microplastics everywhere they look. In the Mariana Trench and on Mt Everest[1], and in 90% of table salt tested[2]. One recent study says the average person consumes about a credit card sized amount of microplastics every year[3]. While we're not certain it's dangerous, there are a lot of reasons to be very concerned Edit: And just To make it clear, in my mind the danger is just about certain. I'm speaking conservatively with my claims, but I really believe this is a large concern. Especially for developing kids and teens. 1- https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/microplastics-pollution-is-everywhere-is-it-harmful/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/microplastics-pol... 2- https://www.google.com/amp/s/api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/environment/2018/10/microplastics-found-90-percent-table-salt-sea-salt https://www.google.com/amp/s/api.nationalgeographic.com/dist.... (Amp to get around reading limit;) 3-https://qz.com/1644802/you-eat-5-grams-of-plastic-per-week/ https://qz.com/1644802/you-eat-5-grams-of-plastic-per-week/
- young_unixer 6y ago
  So, plastics are the actual "soy" right wingers were talking about.
- jamesrcole 6y ago
  I appreciate the reply. I’ve given reasons in other responses that (it seems) the way to address this is to address poor waste management practices. That they’re the problem, not plastics per se.
  - southeastern 6y ago
    I'm not convinced this will work. Clearly it hasn't yet. Some people just can't be trusted to be responsible. Rather than teach people to be responsible with plastic, the most responsible thing might be to just put less out these. But I see where you're coming from. I think that can work in certain areas, maybe the more well to do ones
  - 6y ago

apsurd 6y ago

i’m no export so there will be no citations. i was just thinking, the current state of plastics is they pollute oceans and jeopardize entire ecosystems. and they’re made from oil. an idealized argument for how, strictly speaking, this outcome doesn’t have to be the case, is not really that useful? we don’t really recycle plastics because it’s cheaper to just make new plastics. saying all we have to do is recycle plastics is not an actual economic solution? i never comment anymore. thought i’d give it a shot heh

jamesrcole 6y ago
Thank you for the response. What I’ve heard is that plastics don’t pollute, per se, its poor waste management practices. When those practices are sufficient the plastic isn’t an issue (or is much less of an issue). https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution#where-does-our-plastic-accumulate-in-the-ocean-and-what-does-that-mean-for-the-futures https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution#where-does-our-... The summary of those details from that document: “However, it is the management of plastic waste that determines the risk of plastic entering the ocean. High-income countries have very effect waste management systems; mismanaged waste – and plastic that ends up in the oceans – is therefore very rare. Poor waste management across many middle- and low-income countries means that these are the main sources of global ocean plastic pollution This makes the improvement of waste management systems across the world critical to reducing plastic pollution. An estimated 20 percent of all plastic waste in the oceans comes from marine sources. In some regions, marine sources dominate: More than half of plastics in the Great Pacific Garbage Patch (GPGP) come from fishing nets, ropes and lines”. If this is true, then the best way to address the pollution would be to address those poor practices.
- apsurd 6y ago
  that’s helpful information to think about! thanks. in other words, there are things we can do to manage the situation we’re in. i kind of assume you’re familiar with https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24714880 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24714880 so that’s why i suppose i’m necessarily oriented more toward an economic-based view/incentive solution. because this plastic problem is economic capitalistic abuse/exploitation. i didn’t downvote you btw but i think your initial comment is triggering because like... nobody needs the absurds amount of shitty disposable plastic crap being created. it’s cheap and people can make a buck and it’s simple as that. anyway, thanks for the link!

woodruffw 6y ago

I think these have been repeated over and over again, but: * We don't really know what the long tail of plastic in the environment looks like. It could be relatively benign, but we're painting ourselves into a corner in terms of long-term management with our current rate of plastic production. * Plastic is a petrochemical product. Like all petrochemical products its extraction and production steps are environmentally devastating, even if the end material is relatively inert. We also like to produce it in countries with poor environmental and safety controls. * Current policies for managing plastic waste fall into two categories: we either put it in a hole and forget about it (see the long tail point above) or we externalize it to a significantly poorer country for "recycling" (read: dumping into waterways, burning as trash, putting in their own holes in the ground). The former is an unknown, the later is bad and unsustainable.

jamesrcole 6y ago
Thanks for the response. > * We don't really know what the long tail of plastic in the environment looks like. See my response to another reply - the problem with plastic in the environment seems primarily to do with poor waste management practices. They seem to be a better thing to address to address this issue. Could there be long tail impacts? I don’t know, but “we don’t know” is not a terribly strong argument. Surely that could also be said for lots of things other than plastic. > * Plastic is a petrochemical product. Like all petrochemical products its extraction and production steps are environmentally devastating That seems a plausible concern. We’d have to see the specific evidence about just how damaging that is, and how damaging it is relative to the alternatives. > * Current policies for managing plastic waste fall into two categories: we either put it in a hole and forget about it (see the long tail point above) I’ve hear that this isn’t actually a bad thing. For one thing, it’s localized (as in concentrated in specific areas). And surely there are ways of ensuring minimal leaching of ‘bad things’ in surrounds (potential eg: choosing a spot with appropriate groundwater). > or we externalize it to a significantly poorer country for "recycling" (read: dumping into waterways, burning as trash, putting in their own holes in the ground). The former is an unknown, the later is bad and unsustainable But then why aren’t these specific issues being targeted rather than plastics per se?

pazimzadeh 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Pacific_garbage_patch

jamesrcole 6y ago
[edit: this by itself isn’t an an argument against plastics. See the provided link with details about poor waste management practices (such as in marine vessels and certain countries). They appear to be the issue, not plastics per se] That might be a serious issue, but simply mentioning it isn’t a serious argument against plastics themselves. See https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution https://ourworldindata.org/plastic-pollution

southeastern 6y ago

Many plastics are known endocrine disruptors. They mimic estrogen and their exact effects on the human body are unknown. But because of the nature of plastics, the don't decompose but just break down into smaller and smaller pieces. They find microplastics everywhere they look. In the Mariana Trench and on Mt Everest[1], and in 90% of table salt tested[2]. One recent study says the average person consumes about a credit card sized amount of microplastics every year[3]. While we're not certain it's dangerous, there are a lot of reasons to be very concerned Edit: And just To make it clear, in my mind the danger is just about certain. I'm speaking conservatively with my claims, but I really believe this is a large concern. Especially for developing kids and teens. 1- https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/microplastics-pollution-is-everywhere-is-it-harmful/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/microplastics-pol... 2- https://www.google.com/amp/s/api.nationalgeographic.com/distribution/public/amp/environment/2018/10/microplastics-found-90-percent-table-salt-sea-salt https://www.google.com/amp/s/api.nationalgeographic.com/dist.... (Amp to get around reading limit;) 3-https://qz.com/1644802/you-eat-5-grams-of-plastic-per-week/ https://qz.com/1644802/you-eat-5-grams-of-plastic-per-week/

young_unixer 6y ago
So, plastics are the actual "soy" right wingers were talking about.
jamesrcole 6y ago
I appreciate the reply. I’ve given reasons in other responses that (it seems) the way to address this is to address poor waste management practices. That they’re the problem, not plastics per se.
- southeastern 6y ago
  I'm not convinced this will work. Clearly it hasn't yet. Some people just can't be trusted to be responsible. Rather than teach people to be responsible with plastic, the most responsible thing might be to just put less out these. But I see where you're coming from. I think that can work in certain areas, maybe the more well to do ones
- 6y ago