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Honeybees found using tools to repel giant hornet attacks

126 points by backing 6y ago

i_cannot_hack 6y ago
To me, it seem ridiculous to call this "the first clear example of tool use in honeybees". I actually think there must be some big misunderstanding somewhere. The argument is that by taking animal dung and coating the entrance they are "taking something and manipulating it to shape their environment", which they think qualifies as tool use. But we've already known for ages that bees gather sap from trees and coat the inside of their hives with it (propolis), to seal gaps and prevent bacterial growth. I cannot think of any reasonable definition of tool use that would include dung coating but exclude sap coating. Ctrl+f of "sap" and "propolis" in the original paper gave 0 results. Edit: Upon further reading, they seem to define a tool as a "a non-plant solid", which seems specifically tailored to make dung the first tool. The fact that they fail to mention propolis even once in the paper to highlight what they think is the important difference does not impart confidence.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Arnavion 6y ago
  The paper says: >It is also the first clear-cut example of honey bees using a tool in nature (nests and the materials used to construct them are not generally considered tools [82, 83], although some authors disagree [81, 89, 91]). ... so I assume the parenthetical is intended to cover the behavior you describe, ie building a nest would not be complete without sealing it so the sap usage doesn't count.
  - i_cannot_hack 6y ago
    But the dung they describe is simply an additional coating of the nest.
    - Arnavion 6y ago
      Building the nest requires sealing it. They don't coat it with dung unless they smell wasps nearby.
      - i_cannot_hack 6y ago
        I think there's a lot of counterargument to this, but I'll stick to the best one: propolis is used as more than just a a sealant for the hive. "However, if a small lizard or mouse, for example, finds its way into the hive and dies there, bees may be unable to carry it out through the hive entrance. In that case, they would attempt instead to seal the carcass in propolis, essentially mummifying it and making it odorless and harmless." Example picture: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-mouse-skull-that-was-encased-in-propolis-found-within-a-honey-bee-colony-in-an-apiary_fig2_46421115 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-mouse-skull-that-was-e...
        Arnavion 6y ago
        Yes, that does sound to me like it would count as tool-use even by the paper's argument.
        hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
        Wow, that was really cool. I didn't know about propolis, yet again I'm more amazed by honeybees.
- dang 6y ago
  Ok, we've taken the 'first' bit out of the title above.
  - ajb 6y ago
    It's good to make titles less clickbaity. I don't quite understand the rationale for editing here though, because this is a claim seriously made by the underlying journal article in PLOS One. Edited to add: it seems an exaggerated claim to me too, but it's not just in the headline
    - dang 6y ago
      Good question. From our perspective the issue is whether the discussion here gets snagged on something controversial (sensational, etc.) that is less interesting than the main topic. If there's any such snag in the title, the thread will tend to fill up with shallow comments that are reacting just to that. We've learned that when such title objections start appearing, it's best to sand away the snag.
- DonHopkins 6y ago
  More like "the first clear example of stool use in honeybees".
tehchromic 6y ago
a first? not so sure about that. What is propolis if not a tool? The little bugs dig out tree sap, mix it with saliva, and plug up holes in their homes to keep out cold and bugs and we have known about it forever. It's in our hippy shampoo and cosmetics!
betwixthewires 6y ago
A little off topic, but something I've been pondering a lot lately is the relationship between eusociality (the colony structure you find in bees, ants, terminates, and 2 known mammal species) and intelligence. We can clearly see a difference between an ant or an ant colony and a human being, so the eusocial behavior cannot really be defined as intelligent. And in insects, the behavior is biological, not learned. And the interesting behavior is exhibited by the entire colony, not the individuals themselves, yet the idea that the colony has a mind is really not supported by our understanding of what a mind is. Yet outward traits of eusocial colonies and intelligent creatures are eerily similar in many ways. What gives?
- tehchromic 6y ago
  What gives is the extra status we automatically pad to the idea of human intelligence to make ourselves feel special. Anthropomorphic padding.
  - betwixthewires 6y ago
    That might have a little to do with it, but it can't be the entire explanation. Human beings can send a man to the moon in a tin can. This has got to have something to do with intelligence. Ant colonies cannot do that. This comparison is now reminding me of Starship Troopers...
    - circlefavshape 6y ago
      I don't think that's a good argument. For 90% of the time that homo sapiens has existed we didn't even have pottery
    - vbezhenar 6y ago
      Where's the threshold? For thousands of years humans just hunted and gathered. They used primitive tools. I would argue that ants had more sophisticated behavior at that time.
    - tehchromic 6y ago
jonathanlb 6y ago
I'm curious about the process (smearing dung on the hive entrance) leading to the result (giant hornets don't enter). There has to be some creative thinking there. How else could the connection been made?
- eyelidlessness 6y ago
  I think the evolutionary trait explanation is “the ones who do this survive and the ones who don’t die off”, which doesn’t rule out creative thinking but doesn’t require it either.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
todd8 6y ago
Not the only insects using poop. How about dung beetles: [1] https://www.thoughtco.com/fascinating-facts-about-dung-beetles-1968119 https://www.thoughtco.com/fascinating-facts-about-dung-beetl...

126 points by backing 6y ago

To me, it seem ridiculous to call this "the first clear example of tool use in honeybees". I actually think there must be some big misunderstanding somewhere. The argument is that by taking animal dung and coating the entrance they are "taking something and manipulating it to shape their environment", which they think qualifies as tool use. But we've already known for ages that bees gather sap from trees and coat the inside of their hives with it (propolis), to seal gaps and prevent bacterial growth. I cannot think of any reasonable definition of tool use that would include dung coating but exclude sap coating. Ctrl+f of "sap" and "propolis" in the original paper gave 0 results. Edit: Upon further reading, they seem to define a tool as a "a non-plant solid", which seems specifically tailored to make dung the first tool. The fact that they fail to mention propolis even once in the paper to highlight what they think is the important difference does not impart confidence.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Arnavion 6y ago
The paper says: >It is also the first clear-cut example of honey bees using a tool in nature (nests and the materials used to construct them are not generally considered tools [82, 83], although some authors disagree [81, 89, 91]). ... so I assume the parenthetical is intended to cover the behavior you describe, ie building a nest would not be complete without sealing it so the sap usage doesn't count.
- i_cannot_hack 6y ago
  But the dung they describe is simply an additional coating of the nest.
  - Arnavion 6y ago
    Building the nest requires sealing it. They don't coat it with dung unless they smell wasps nearby.
    - i_cannot_hack 6y ago
      I think there's a lot of counterargument to this, but I'll stick to the best one: propolis is used as more than just a a sealant for the hive. "However, if a small lizard or mouse, for example, finds its way into the hive and dies there, bees may be unable to carry it out through the hive entrance. In that case, they would attempt instead to seal the carcass in propolis, essentially mummifying it and making it odorless and harmless." Example picture: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-mouse-skull-that-was-encased-in-propolis-found-within-a-honey-bee-colony-in-an-apiary_fig2_46421115 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/A-mouse-skull-that-was-e...
      - Arnavion 6y ago
        Yes, that does sound to me like it would count as tool-use even by the paper's argument.
      - hn_throwaway_99 6y ago
        Wow, that was really cool. I didn't know about propolis, yet again I'm more amazed by honeybees.
dang 6y ago
Ok, we've taken the 'first' bit out of the title above.
- ajb 6y ago
  It's good to make titles less clickbaity. I don't quite understand the rationale for editing here though, because this is a claim seriously made by the underlying journal article in PLOS One. Edited to add: it seems an exaggerated claim to me too, but it's not just in the headline
  - dang 6y ago
    Good question. From our perspective the issue is whether the discussion here gets snagged on something controversial (sensational, etc.) that is less interesting than the main topic. If there's any such snag in the title, the thread will tend to fill up with shallow comments that are reacting just to that. We've learned that when such title objections start appearing, it's best to sand away the snag.
DonHopkins 6y ago
More like "the first clear example of stool use in honeybees".

tehchromic 6y ago

a first? not so sure about that. What is propolis if not a tool? The little bugs dig out tree sap, mix it with saliva, and plug up holes in their homes to keep out cold and bugs and we have known about it forever. It's in our hippy shampoo and cosmetics!

betwixthewires 6y ago

A little off topic, but something I've been pondering a lot lately is the relationship between eusociality (the colony structure you find in bees, ants, terminates, and 2 known mammal species) and intelligence. We can clearly see a difference between an ant or an ant colony and a human being, so the eusocial behavior cannot really be defined as intelligent. And in insects, the behavior is biological, not learned. And the interesting behavior is exhibited by the entire colony, not the individuals themselves, yet the idea that the colony has a mind is really not supported by our understanding of what a mind is. Yet outward traits of eusocial colonies and intelligent creatures are eerily similar in many ways. What gives?

tehchromic 6y ago
What gives is the extra status we automatically pad to the idea of human intelligence to make ourselves feel special. Anthropomorphic padding.
- betwixthewires 6y ago
  That might have a little to do with it, but it can't be the entire explanation. Human beings can send a man to the moon in a tin can. This has got to have something to do with intelligence. Ant colonies cannot do that. This comparison is now reminding me of Starship Troopers...
  - circlefavshape 6y ago
    I don't think that's a good argument. For 90% of the time that homo sapiens has existed we didn't even have pottery
  - vbezhenar 6y ago
    Where's the threshold? For thousands of years humans just hunted and gathered. They used primitive tools. I would argue that ants had more sophisticated behavior at that time.
  - tehchromic 6y ago

jonathanlb 6y ago

I'm curious about the process (smearing dung on the hive entrance) leading to the result (giant hornets don't enter). There has to be some creative thinking there. How else could the connection been made?

eyelidlessness 6y ago
I think the evolutionary trait explanation is “the ones who do this survive and the ones who don’t die off”, which doesn’t rule out creative thinking but doesn’t require it either.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

todd8 6y ago

Not the only insects using poop. How about dung beetles: [1] https://www.thoughtco.com/fascinating-facts-about-dung-beetles-1968119 https://www.thoughtco.com/fascinating-facts-about-dung-beetl...