5 ms·

It's not Stockholm syndrome, it's familiarity with how things worked on other platform. Windows/IE literally wasted hundreds of millions of person hours by bei

It's not Stockholm syndrome, it's familiarity with how things worked on other platform. Windows/IE literally wasted hundreds of millions of person hours by being leaky, insecure, virus-prone crap. You could - if you chose to - make quite a nice income out of sending out phishing emails on our open email system. Likewise for randomsware, only more so. And so on. iOS may have other flaws, but worrying that your iPhone is going to be locked by a Bitcoin hacker isn't one of them. And realistically, users are idiots - at least technically. We've all heard of PC users who click on every random thing and end up with twenty-odd toolbars and almost every possible virus. The only reason phones aren't the same is because security is locked down. These are consumer devices. They are not hacker devices. If you want an open hacker device, go build one and see if you can persuade people to buy it. You won't - of course - because in userland locked down security is a feature, not a bug. And users care more about not having to pay a ransom to unlock their own phones than they do about running with root privileges. Not having to think about this is valuable. Having said all that, there's definitely room to negotiate the costs of all of this, and also to open up selected services that can be proven to be secure. But those costs, the access to useful non-risky APIs for devs, and access for third party service providers, are all different issues to the core validity of the model itself.

friedman23 6y ago
> Windows/IE literally wasted hundreds of millions of person hours by being leaky, insecure, virus-prone crap How do you explain that I've been using mac os for decades, I am able to install third party software, and I have not run into any of the issues you are describing?
saagarjha 6y ago
> iOS may have other flaws, but worrying that your iPhone is going to be locked by a Bitcoin hacker isn't one of them. This is enforced by the platform sandbox, not the App Store. They are entirely separate things.
- quesera 6y ago
  An alternate App Store would operate outside the sandbox though, right? Otherwise, the alternate App Store would be relegated to installing apps within its own sandbox. And people would continue to howl about it.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    The app could just hand off installation to the privileged system daemon that can do that part for it.
reader_mode 6y ago
>Windows/IE literally wasted hundreds of millions of person hours by being leaky, insecure, virus-prone crap. You could - if you chose to - make quite a nice income out of sending out phishing emails on our open email system. Likewise for randomsware, only more so. And so on. And so your argument is that Microsoft should have forbidden anyone from using a different browser engine (like Apple does) to make things safer ? What if someone installed Chrome or Firefox - that could have leaks and then you would think less of the platform - right ?
- iguy 6y ago
  No. That wasn't the argument at all. It's that people aren't exactly stretching their imaginations to picture their phone ecosystem going to hell. They've all been there before, and have vivid memories of what they don't want. They are also not crazy to have different preferences for a phone and for a desktop. Just like you have different preferences when selecting a hotel room vs a house.
  - reader_mode 6y ago
    The argument is nonsense because Apple decisions are not driven by security but are there to ensure they get a cut of every revenue stream on their platform. If this was just about security there would be a way to verify secure 3rd party payment processing methods - I trust Stripe as much as I trust Apple for example. And you wouldn't be forced to offer the same price on other platforms either. I don't mind personally I see the value they offer - they make products that are better overall for a large majority of consumers and their ecosystem just works for many use cases - it doesn't fit me particularly well but I see the value proposition. Pretending that these store policies are driven by security is nonsense, those kinds of arguments tick me off.
    - iguy 6y ago
      Who's pretending they are "driven by security"? Clearly Apple wants to make money. The only argument being made is that some customers choose the walled garden because they want a telephone, not a part-time job keeping the weeds at bay. As you say, that's (a component of) what they are selling, and they do it because it sells (long-term, in their estimation).
jimnotgym 6y ago
>Windows/IE I keep having Apple users explain that Catalina is better than Windows 95. This seems in a similar vein.
heavyset_go 6y ago
> iOS may have other flaws, but worrying that your iPhone is going to be locked by a Bitcoin hacker isn't one of them. iOS exploits are cheaper than Android exploits because iOS exploits are so plentiful[1][2]. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2020/05/14/zerodium_ios_flaws/ https://www.theregister.com/2020/05/14/zerodium_ios_flaws/ [2] http://zerodium.com/program.html http://zerodium.com/program.html
fomine3 6y ago
See Android, seriously.

friedman23 6y ago

> Windows/IE literally wasted hundreds of millions of person hours by being leaky, insecure, virus-prone crap How do you explain that I've been using mac os for decades, I am able to install third party software, and I have not run into any of the issues you are describing?

saagarjha 6y ago

> iOS may have other flaws, but worrying that your iPhone is going to be locked by a Bitcoin hacker isn't one of them. This is enforced by the platform sandbox, not the App Store. They are entirely separate things.

quesera 6y ago
An alternate App Store would operate outside the sandbox though, right? Otherwise, the alternate App Store would be relegated to installing apps within its own sandbox. And people would continue to howl about it.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  The app could just hand off installation to the privileged system daemon that can do that part for it.

reader_mode 6y ago

>Windows/IE literally wasted hundreds of millions of person hours by being leaky, insecure, virus-prone crap. You could - if you chose to - make quite a nice income out of sending out phishing emails on our open email system. Likewise for randomsware, only more so. And so on. And so your argument is that Microsoft should have forbidden anyone from using a different browser engine (like Apple does) to make things safer ? What if someone installed Chrome or Firefox - that could have leaks and then you would think less of the platform - right ?

iguy 6y ago
No. That wasn't the argument at all. It's that people aren't exactly stretching their imaginations to picture their phone ecosystem going to hell. They've all been there before, and have vivid memories of what they don't want. They are also not crazy to have different preferences for a phone and for a desktop. Just like you have different preferences when selecting a hotel room vs a house.
- reader_mode 6y ago
  The argument is nonsense because Apple decisions are not driven by security but are there to ensure they get a cut of every revenue stream on their platform. If this was just about security there would be a way to verify secure 3rd party payment processing methods - I trust Stripe as much as I trust Apple for example. And you wouldn't be forced to offer the same price on other platforms either. I don't mind personally I see the value they offer - they make products that are better overall for a large majority of consumers and their ecosystem just works for many use cases - it doesn't fit me particularly well but I see the value proposition. Pretending that these store policies are driven by security is nonsense, those kinds of arguments tick me off.
  - iguy 6y ago
    Who's pretending they are "driven by security"? Clearly Apple wants to make money. The only argument being made is that some customers choose the walled garden because they want a telephone, not a part-time job keeping the weeds at bay. As you say, that's (a component of) what they are selling, and they do it because it sells (long-term, in their estimation).

jimnotgym 6y ago

>Windows/IE I keep having Apple users explain that Catalina is better than Windows 95. This seems in a similar vein.

heavyset_go 6y ago

> iOS may have other flaws, but worrying that your iPhone is going to be locked by a Bitcoin hacker isn't one of them. iOS exploits are cheaper than Android exploits because iOS exploits are so plentiful[1][2]. [1] https://www.theregister.com/2020/05/14/zerodium_ios_flaws/ https://www.theregister.com/2020/05/14/zerodium_ios_flaws/ [2] http://zerodium.com/program.html http://zerodium.com/program.html

fomine3 6y ago

See Android, seriously.