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I think we're close to an impasse, partially due to a language barrier, so I may give up soon, but let me give this another try. I don't think you've understoo

I think we're close to an impasse, partially due to a language barrier, so I may give up soon, but let me give this another try. I don't think you've understood my example. We may have philosophical disagreements left over even once you've understood my example. But so far you still don't seem to understand it. For example, you say: You have to mention [that the smoking → tar causation is presumed not controversial] explicitly. Because it's also presumed not controversial that genetics can predispose someone to cancer. Right, of course it's not controversial that genetics can predispose someone to cancer. That's the whole point. That's why it's among the two hypotheses being tested. It is ruled out (under the assumptions of the causal super-graph, which includes that hypothesis and an alternative hypothesis as the world of possibilities) by the statistical data. Please try to understand this point and acknowledge that it is the case. You may question the usefulness of this model of science. But so far you don't seem to understand what I'm even saying with this. This is factually wrong. We don't know whether plausible hypothesis are finite or infinite. "Plausible", as I'm using it, is a partially subjective term: plausible in the view of subject matter experts. As you're using it, it appears to be an objective term, meaning something akin to "logically possible", perhaps with some ill-defined notion of probability (but what are your priors?). I'm talking about real scientists in the real world. You seem to be talking about some idealized scientist which doesn't, and can't, exist. General Relativity was not plausible in the 17th century. It was not even conceived of then. It became plausible in the 20th century. What's the plausible (as judged by actual scientists, not in some hypothetical abstract logic) alternative hypothesis to the meteor killing the dinosaurs? There is none, so far as I know. The set of hypotheses under consideration changes over time due to the imagination and skepticism of real flesh and blood scientists, not due to some Platonic logic which no scientist can follow. Formally in the scientific world your method is flawed. This is what I'm saying. In the mathematical world your assumptions and logic can hold but not in science. I get that your toy example was used for illustration purposes but it's failure to be applicable to the real world is also an illustration of the flaw behind the method itself. … The only thing that can be assumed is probability and logic. That is what the scientific method is operating in. To be quite frank, I think it is your model which fails to be applicable to the real world. You'll be hard-pressed to find a single practicing scientist who sees themself as a logic/probability machine. In the real world we need to operate, provisionally, with certain assumptions about how the world works, or else we can understand nothing. Those assumptions can always be challenged. But they are held, provisionally, so that we can make progress in our understanding. >The point is RCTs are a special case of a more general causal logic. RCTs work because they sever the statistical link to confounders, but only provided your assumptions about the RCTs are correct. Ok we're probably on the same page then. This is exactly what I'm saying. No, my whole point is that RCTs are just one special case of the more general theory of causal inference, and that more general theory can be applied elsewhere too. The assumptions underlying an RCT are not exceptional, and like everything else in science, they can be challenged. If you have a population of 1000 people come in and take pills A or B, as determined by a random number generator, and then the ones who took pill A survive and the ones who took pill B die, the RCT says B killed them. But perhaps unbeknownst to you, there was a source of gamma rays due to an experiment in the next room which was simultaneously flipping bits on your random number generator and also irradiating your subjects with lethal doses. The gamma rays would then be the confounder. "Science" does not rule out this possibility in theory. But in practice, it may be implausible to the experts. (Remember: plausibility is partially subjective, a function of the current state of scientific understanding! It can change over time!) So they are not worried about it when interpreting the results of the RCT. Similarly, the universe of logically possible causal explanations consists mostly of hypotheses that no scientist currently takes seriously (i.e. considers plausible). Of the ones on the table, so to speak, the predictions can be tested to leave only one causal explanation (for the time being) standing.

Geminidog 6y ago
>I think we're close to an impasse, partially due to a language barrier, so I may give up soon, but let me give this another try. >I don't think you've understood my ex.... I find this attitude sort of self serving. How do you know you don't understand me? Perhaps I have the same exact feeling about you. I try to stay unbiased and not actually bring this up in case I am the person who is the one who knows less. I just try to focus on the debate at hand rather then get frustrated (as you have). Suffice to say I feel exactly the same about you, so I also request that you please try to understand me. >Right, of course it's not controversial that genetics can predispose someone to cancer. That's the whole point. That's why it's among the two hypotheses being tested. It is ruled out (under the ..... I acknowledge. and I understand what you're saying. Now with that out of the way please understand that despite my complete understanding of what you said above I am not discounting your logic I am responding to it and addressing it below. First off, When I say not "controversial" it's brought up as an example under the axiomatic playground you laid out. I am trying to illustrate inconsistencies within your world. You assume smoking causes tar as a given but you don't assume other givens like how genes cause cancer. That is the inconsistency I am pointing out, that's all. Now you say that this is your entire point, meaning that you are saying that these assumptions are used to draw your dependency graph am I correct? I get it and I got it even before you brought up your example.
Geminidog 6y ago
>You may question the usefulness of this model of science. But so far you don't seem to understand what I'm even .... Let's clarify something here. I never said it's not useful. I have a very clear definition of science, a very concrete model of what is should be. Usefulness is not what I'm talking about here, I'm more talking about the true nature of science and causation rather then how useful it is to do science or perform even your methodological technique of commuting a dependency graph (which I agree can be useful at times). But continue, I will reiterate your points to prove to you that I completely understand and that I always understood from the beginning. >"Plausible", as I'm using it, is a partially subjective term: plausible in the view of subject matter experts. As you're using it, it appears to be an objective term, meaning something akin to "logically possible", So let me describe what I'm thinking when you say "plausible hypothesis." I am thinking your talking about a some predicate statement that can either be true or false that is reasonable to predict or state due to your intuitive sense of how likely that hypothesis is to occur. I totally get it. >I'm talking about real scientists in the real world. You seem to be talking about some idealized scientist which doesn't, and can't, exist. General Relativity was not plausible in the 17th century. The irony here is that your initial example about smoking isn't even real world, it's highly idealized. You assume a fixed set of rules and hypotheses in your universe. I claimed that your idealized example can't function in the real world but your counter claim is that because the real world is imperfect your commuting model of drawing a dependency graph is valid because people in the "real" world make assumptions. Do you see the inconsistency here? Fear not, despite the inconsistency, I get your point and I will address it. >What's the plausible (as judged by actual scientists, not in some hypothetical abstract logic) alternative hypothesis to the meteor killing the dinosaurs? There is none, so far as I know. I assume you're saying this to point out how there's only a single "plausible hypothesis" about how the dinos became extinct, correct? I assume yes. If so then this is my response: There was a period in time where a geocentric universe was the only hypothesis available with no alternative model in existence. There was a period of time where creationism was the only possible hypothesis for the origin of life. There was a period of time where a flat earth was the only plausible hypothesis about the world as we know it. These are all hypothesis that were at one time the sole single "plausible hypothesis" that was overturned at a later date. "Plausibility" is usually defined relative to the amount of knowledge humans have rather then the total knowledge (aka mathematical domain) of the universe. So if humans have no other evidence about the spherical nature of the globe then a flat earth becomes a plausible hypothesis. But because the universe is not fully discovered or known the more accurate definition of "total knowledge of the universe" the right definition. Because we currently have no way of knowing all the knowledge in the universe there is know true way to accurately gauge how plausible a hypothesis is. Because like the flat earth, like geocentrism, like creationism there is an infinite amount of models and hypothesis that can be discovered at any point in time that will render your current hypothesis, implausible. Of course let me point out that I'm not saying that this does not make all of science not useful. It's the best tool we have. We can use it and assume the world is flat until we know better. My point in this case is to acknowledge your point and point out yes it's useful but here is the flaw and the problems with it. >To be quite frank, I think it is your model which fails to be applicable to the real world. You'll be hard-pressed to find a single practicing scientist who sees themself as a logic/probability machine. I think you're misunderstanding here. Statistics is founded on probability, the very fact that statistics is used in all of science indicates that all scientists assume probability to be true. I think you don't really understand the nature of probability. Probability is just an axiomatic set of statements and theorems and formulas. You plug in a probability into this function and you get another numerical representation that we call probabilities. By sheer coincidence probability happens to work in reality. If there is a raffle with 10 billion tickets where 10% of the tickets have my name on it, then when I draw from that raffle 1 million times around 10% of those tickets will have my name. The larger the numbers you work with the more and more reality seems to represent probability. Nobody to this day knows why this things are consistently like this. Currently we all just take this as an assumption and assume the mathematics of probability apply to the real world. The same goes for logic. We assume logic is true, I call it a recursive statement because saying something is true is part of logic itself. These are assumptions that are the foundation of how we interpret reality as we know it. >Those assumptions can always be challenged. But they are held, provisionally, so that we can make progress in our understanding. Your saying this because you misunderstood me! not I you. I am saying 100% that we have to make foundational assumptions about our universe like probability and logic. But I get where you're coming from. Your talking about adhoc assumptions like the sun in the sky exists and I don't have to use formal methodology to prove it because it's ludicrous. I get it. What I am saying goes deeper than this. I am saying that any for any formal scientific method to truly establish causality should not need to include adhoc hypothesis and assumptions. It should as much as possible only include foundational axioms like probability and logic... Why? Because every additional assumption can be questioned as to whether it's true or not true. I can hear what you're thinking. There's just a ton of obvious stuff in the universe that we can just assume to be true. For example the sun exists in the sky and the keyboard under my fingers exists. It's stupid to not use these assumptions in our "science." I would say all the hypothesis I mentioned fall under the category of "plausible hypothesis" the same category where the flat earth theory once belonged. That is MY point. The scientific method itself is defined requiring only two assumptions: probability and logic is real. Your method is defined with the requirement of an adhoc amount of assumptions about the universe. It is not foundational. It is merely logical conjecture in a game of axioms and theorems. >No, my whole point is that RCTs are just one special case of the more general theory of causal inference, and that more general theory can be applied elsewhere too. The assumptions underlying an RCT are not exceptional, and like everything else in science, they can be challenged. Special case indeed, I wouldn't even call it a special case as it's more like a logic puzzle or a game where the entities are well defined. Rarely applicable to a universe composed of an infinite amount of possibilities. >If you have a population of 1000 people come in and take pills A or B, as determined by a random number generator, and then the ones who took pill A survive and the ones who took pill B die, the RCT says B killed them. But perhaps unbeknownst to you, there was a sou..... >"Science" does not rule out this possibility in theory. But in practice, it may be implausi.... Sure totally agreed. However in this experiment No causality was established! only correlation. The statement that correlation doesn't imply causation still holds. However you are assuming here that correlation implies causation. Like I said earlier for the causal experiment truly be causal we must conduct the experiment by creating a cause with no side effects. Since it's basically impossible to confirm that your causal switch has no side effects are closest possible methodology is to account for it then assume no side effect occurs. Keep in mind, I mentioned that this assumption was a "foundational assumption" like probability and logic, this assumption is not the same as the adhoc assumptions you are bringing up to make your logic work correctly. If this was an actual experiment this foundational assumption of no side effects would be an implicit part of the conclusion of the experiment: "Assuming there were no side effects when triggering the causal event, Pill B causes the person who eats it to die." >Similarly, the universe of logically possible causal explanations consists mostly of hypotheses that no scientist currently takes seriously (i.e. considers plausible). Right but the scientific method itself just uses foundational assumptions just like my controlling the causal event. In practice you take these foundational techniques and you adjust when needed. My argument and point was to say that your methodology is too adhoc and requires too many assumptions to be placed side by side with the scientific method. Hopefully that makes it more clear because you said earlier that you were describing a "special case" which is exactly what I'm saying about your methodology. It's describing a special case that in actually you have to assume causality of other factors in order to assume causality itself, it's more like inference rather then building up the axiomatic components of causality from the ground up.

Geminidog 6y ago

>I think we're close to an impasse, partially due to a language barrier, so I may give up soon, but let me give this another try. >I don't think you've understood my ex.... I find this attitude sort of self serving. How do you know you don't understand me? Perhaps I have the same exact feeling about you. I try to stay unbiased and not actually bring this up in case I am the person who is the one who knows less. I just try to focus on the debate at hand rather then get frustrated (as you have). Suffice to say I feel exactly the same about you, so I also request that you please try to understand me. >Right, of course it's not controversial that genetics can predispose someone to cancer. That's the whole point. That's why it's among the two hypotheses being tested. It is ruled out (under the ..... I acknowledge. and I understand what you're saying. Now with that out of the way please understand that despite my complete understanding of what you said above I am not discounting your logic I am responding to it and addressing it below. First off, When I say not "controversial" it's brought up as an example under the axiomatic playground you laid out. I am trying to illustrate inconsistencies within your world. You assume smoking causes tar as a given but you don't assume other givens like how genes cause cancer. That is the inconsistency I am pointing out, that's all. Now you say that this is your entire point, meaning that you are saying that these assumptions are used to draw your dependency graph am I correct? I get it and I got it even before you brought up your example.

Geminidog 6y ago

>You may question the usefulness of this model of science. But so far you don't seem to understand what I'm even .... Let's clarify something here. I never said it's not useful. I have a very clear definition of science, a very concrete model of what is should be. Usefulness is not what I'm talking about here, I'm more talking about the true nature of science and causation rather then how useful it is to do science or perform even your methodological technique of commuting a dependency graph (which I agree can be useful at times). But continue, I will reiterate your points to prove to you that I completely understand and that I always understood from the beginning. >"Plausible", as I'm using it, is a partially subjective term: plausible in the view of subject matter experts. As you're using it, it appears to be an objective term, meaning something akin to "logically possible", So let me describe what I'm thinking when you say "plausible hypothesis." I am thinking your talking about a some predicate statement that can either be true or false that is reasonable to predict or state due to your intuitive sense of how likely that hypothesis is to occur. I totally get it. >I'm talking about real scientists in the real world. You seem to be talking about some idealized scientist which doesn't, and can't, exist. General Relativity was not plausible in the 17th century. The irony here is that your initial example about smoking isn't even real world, it's highly idealized. You assume a fixed set of rules and hypotheses in your universe. I claimed that your idealized example can't function in the real world but your counter claim is that because the real world is imperfect your commuting model of drawing a dependency graph is valid because people in the "real" world make assumptions. Do you see the inconsistency here? Fear not, despite the inconsistency, I get your point and I will address it. >What's the plausible (as judged by actual scientists, not in some hypothetical abstract logic) alternative hypothesis to the meteor killing the dinosaurs? There is none, so far as I know. I assume you're saying this to point out how there's only a single "plausible hypothesis" about how the dinos became extinct, correct? I assume yes. If so then this is my response: There was a period in time where a geocentric universe was the only hypothesis available with no alternative model in existence. There was a period of time where creationism was the only possible hypothesis for the origin of life. There was a period of time where a flat earth was the only plausible hypothesis about the world as we know it. These are all hypothesis that were at one time the sole single "plausible hypothesis" that was overturned at a later date. "Plausibility" is usually defined relative to the amount of knowledge humans have rather then the total knowledge (aka mathematical domain) of the universe. So if humans have no other evidence about the spherical nature of the globe then a flat earth becomes a plausible hypothesis. But because the universe is not fully discovered or known the more accurate definition of "total knowledge of the universe" the right definition. Because we currently have no way of knowing all the knowledge in the universe there is know true way to accurately gauge how plausible a hypothesis is. Because like the flat earth, like geocentrism, like creationism there is an infinite amount of models and hypothesis that can be discovered at any point in time that will render your current hypothesis, implausible. Of course let me point out that I'm not saying that this does not make all of science not useful. It's the best tool we have. We can use it and assume the world is flat until we know better. My point in this case is to acknowledge your point and point out yes it's useful but here is the flaw and the problems with it. >To be quite frank, I think it is your model which fails to be applicable to the real world. You'll be hard-pressed to find a single practicing scientist who sees themself as a logic/probability machine. I think you're misunderstanding here. Statistics is founded on probability, the very fact that statistics is used in all of science indicates that all scientists assume probability to be true. I think you don't really understand the nature of probability. Probability is just an axiomatic set of statements and theorems and formulas. You plug in a probability into this function and you get another numerical representation that we call probabilities. By sheer coincidence probability happens to work in reality. If there is a raffle with 10 billion tickets where 10% of the tickets have my name on it, then when I draw from that raffle 1 million times around 10% of those tickets will have my name. The larger the numbers you work with the more and more reality seems to represent probability. Nobody to this day knows why this things are consistently like this. Currently we all just take this as an assumption and assume the mathematics of probability apply to the real world. The same goes for logic. We assume logic is true, I call it a recursive statement because saying something is true is part of logic itself. These are assumptions that are the foundation of how we interpret reality as we know it. >Those assumptions can always be challenged. But they are held, provisionally, so that we can make progress in our understanding. Your saying this because you misunderstood me! not I you. I am saying 100% that we have to make foundational assumptions about our universe like probability and logic. But I get where you're coming from. Your talking about adhoc assumptions like the sun in the sky exists and I don't have to use formal methodology to prove it because it's ludicrous. I get it. What I am saying goes deeper than this. I am saying that any for any formal scientific method to truly establish causality should not need to include adhoc hypothesis and assumptions. It should as much as possible only include foundational axioms like probability and logic... Why? Because every additional assumption can be questioned as to whether it's true or not true. I can hear what you're thinking. There's just a ton of obvious stuff in the universe that we can just assume to be true. For example the sun exists in the sky and the keyboard under my fingers exists. It's stupid to not use these assumptions in our "science." I would say all the hypothesis I mentioned fall under the category of "plausible hypothesis" the same category where the flat earth theory once belonged. That is MY point. The scientific method itself is defined requiring only two assumptions: probability and logic is real. Your method is defined with the requirement of an adhoc amount of assumptions about the universe. It is not foundational. It is merely logical conjecture in a game of axioms and theorems. >No, my whole point is that RCTs are just one special case of the more general theory of causal inference, and that more general theory can be applied elsewhere too. The assumptions underlying an RCT are not exceptional, and like everything else in science, they can be challenged. Special case indeed, I wouldn't even call it a special case as it's more like a logic puzzle or a game where the entities are well defined. Rarely applicable to a universe composed of an infinite amount of possibilities. >If you have a population of 1000 people come in and take pills A or B, as determined by a random number generator, and then the ones who took pill A survive and the ones who took pill B die, the RCT says B killed them. But perhaps unbeknownst to you, there was a sou..... >"Science" does not rule out this possibility in theory. But in practice, it may be implausi.... Sure totally agreed. However in this experiment No causality was established! only correlation. The statement that correlation doesn't imply causation still holds. However you are assuming here that correlation implies causation. Like I said earlier for the causal experiment truly be causal we must conduct the experiment by creating a cause with no side effects. Since it's basically impossible to confirm that your causal switch has no side effects are closest possible methodology is to account for it then assume no side effect occurs. Keep in mind, I mentioned that this assumption was a "foundational assumption" like probability and logic, this assumption is not the same as the adhoc assumptions you are bringing up to make your logic work correctly. If this was an actual experiment this foundational assumption of no side effects would be an implicit part of the conclusion of the experiment: "Assuming there were no side effects when triggering the causal event, Pill B causes the person who eats it to die." >Similarly, the universe of logically possible causal explanations consists mostly of hypotheses that no scientist currently takes seriously (i.e. considers plausible). Right but the scientific method itself just uses foundational assumptions just like my controlling the causal event. In practice you take these foundational techniques and you adjust when needed. My argument and point was to say that your methodology is too adhoc and requires too many assumptions to be placed side by side with the scientific method. Hopefully that makes it more clear because you said earlier that you were describing a "special case" which is exactly what I'm saying about your methodology. It's describing a special case that in actually you have to assume causality of other factors in order to assume causality itself, it's more like inference rather then building up the axiomatic components of causality from the ground up.