4 ms·

> So what is the difference with our current world again? Disagree. IMO the worst thing is government surveillance, and our lack of true democracy. It makes m

> So what is the difference with our current world again? Disagree. IMO the worst thing is government surveillance, and our lack of true democracy. It makes me sad that when Snowden made his revelations, absolutely nobody did anything. However... Electric cars and renewables are happening. Just look at the opening sequence of Blade Runner (staged in 2019?), and tell me we really live in that world. It's definitely not the case that economic inequality is "just accepted". Yes, it's a part of our lives, but the social justice moment is also huge, and sometimes misguided. They have caused a lot of things to change though. IMO, to create positive change, we really need to get away from the "it's just pointless" mindset.

dilap 6y ago
What's that line, the future is here, it's just not evenly distributed yet? Walking around SF and I definitely feel like we're pretty much at the radical inequality cyberpunk future we were promised. I walk outside and see self-driving cars right next to tent cities and people cooking over open flames on the sidewalk.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  Having been to SF, I can see what you mean. I had never seen someone shoot heroin or smoke crack until I walked the streets of SF. I'm thankful that there are other cities and countries one can choose where to live. I hope they don't all end up that way.
endominus 6y ago
What actual change has the social justice movement effected? I know it's very loud and powerful when turned against isolated individuals, but I was unaware of a successful track record against the actual systemic causes of the various injustices they oppose. I just assumed that as a leaderless movement without clear goals or a definable end state ("end racism and sexism" is as malleable as "end terrorism" is), they functioned more as a pressure release valve for the frustration of a generation denied the freedoms of their predecessors without being anesthetized by the numbing flood of meaningless content and nihilistic culture that will safely neuter their descendants, than an effective agent for change.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  That's why I said sometimes misguided. We did get gay marriage. We are getting marijuana legalization and decriminalization of many drugs, which is good in terms of inequality and social issues, because it puts less people into private prisons for victimless crimes. But I do agree that there is a flood of nonsense. When I was a kid, it used to be "race and gender shouldn't matter". Now they define you by your race and gender, it's the only thing that matters. Just throws gasoline on the fire IMO.
  - cambalache 6y ago
    > We did get gay marriage. We are getting marijuana legalization and decriminalization of many drugs, You are giving way too much credit to the SJW millennial crew. None of those things were enacted because of them.
    - tachyonbeam 6y ago
      Probably true. Nevertheless, positive change did happen. Let's hope that sanity prevails.
    - manuelabeledo 6y ago
      True. We have the progressives to thank for those.
  - daotoad 6y ago
    I don't want to start a flamewar or anything. I think you are misunderstanding the issues around race and gender. And it's not really your fault--messaging on this issue is not very clear and there has been a massively toxic tendency to end discussion by declaring someone "a racist" and shutting them out. When I was young, my progressive, well-meaning parents taught me that I should be color-blind and not see race or gender, thinking that a generation of such people would naturally make a world with more equality of opportunity. The problem is that that didn't work. All it did was create a generation of people who were illiterate in regards to the impacts of race and gender discrimination. It created a blind spot where those who wanted to discriminate could hide. Data shows that race and gender have wide reaching impacts on one's ability to access services including education and healthcare, interactions with the justice system, and employment. The sad truth is that categories of race and gender have an outsized impact on your prospects and people have always been defined by them in this country. In some sense, the earlier campaigns were successful--most people agree that overt segregation and discrimination are a bad thing. That's huge progress. But since we have mostly ceased practicing overt forms of discrimination, how is it that these disparities persist? There are two options either there are unconscious and unintentional biases that have a significant impact or the lingering side effects of discrimination keep historically marginalized groups at a significant disadvantage. (I think both cases are true, but that doesn't impact my argument.) If we want to understand why we have these disparate outcomes, we have to pay attention to race and gender and how we behave in relation these categories. Only by doing so can we hope to resolve the underlying issues that drive social imbalance. If you want to learn more about this from someone far, far more expert on the topic than myself, I recommend listening to some interviews with or articles by Ibram X. Kendi. His work is insightful and accessible. https://www.ibramxkendi.com/ https://www.ibramxkendi.com/
manuelabeledo 6y ago
This is quite an American centric response! > IMO the worst thing is government surveillance, and our lack of true democracy. Agreed on the lack of democracy, although it is really nothing new. Gerrymandering has been an issue for decades now. Corporate lobbyists have been openly bribing bureaucrats for quite a while too. The 1980s are, on this regard, not that different from the present. This is also compatible with a cyberpunk-esque world, though. > Just look at the opening sequence of Blade Runner (staged in 2019?), and tell me we really live in that world. Apart from the flying cars, I can think of several metropolis that look almost the same, including the pollution levels. I was in Beijing five years ago, around September. Out of four days, I think I saw the blue sky only once, the day of my arrival, and it was because the authorities banned the circulation of 2.5 million cars for two weeks in August. I believe it was something related to a national holiday, but I'm not quite sure. LA is not that far from it either. > It's definitely not the case that economic inequality is "just accepted". Yes, it's a part of our lives, but the social justice moment is also huge, and sometimes misguided. No comments on the "misguided" bit. To be blunt, economic inequality is accepted, especially in the US. The ideas of the Protestant work ethic and the Prosperity theology, so deeply rooted in the American psyche, revolve around it. There is no movement that would change that in a generation or two, because too much is at stake. Gay marriage took centuries to be legalized, and it wasn't until 2003 that SCOTUS ruled sodomy laws unconstitutional. Women's suffrage in the US was legalized in the 1920s, over a century after the country was founded, and still women struggle to enjoy full autonomous rights until quite recently. Many people of color couldn't vote until the mid 1960s! Or have the same access to essential services as other citizens. My point is, these movements need to exert a constant pressure on society, for decades if needed, to achieve results. And, on the other hand, it may only take a few months or years to undo everything. I'm pointing here to the 1970s and 1980s, when many individual protections were repealed, and corporations of all kinds took advantage of that. In summary, I respect your optimism, but a cyberpunk world also has electric cars and demonstrations on the streets.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  > I was in Beijing five years ago China is ahead of everyone when it comes to electric cars and solar energy. They've fully embraced that this is a technological change that must and will happen. Precisely because of how aware they were of the air pollution issue.

dilap 6y ago

What's that line, the future is here, it's just not evenly distributed yet? Walking around SF and I definitely feel like we're pretty much at the radical inequality cyberpunk future we were promised. I walk outside and see self-driving cars right next to tent cities and people cooking over open flames on the sidewalk.

tachyonbeam 6y ago
Having been to SF, I can see what you mean. I had never seen someone shoot heroin or smoke crack until I walked the streets of SF. I'm thankful that there are other cities and countries one can choose where to live. I hope they don't all end up that way.

endominus 6y ago

What actual change has the social justice movement effected? I know it's very loud and powerful when turned against isolated individuals, but I was unaware of a successful track record against the actual systemic causes of the various injustices they oppose. I just assumed that as a leaderless movement without clear goals or a definable end state ("end racism and sexism" is as malleable as "end terrorism" is), they functioned more as a pressure release valve for the frustration of a generation denied the freedoms of their predecessors without being anesthetized by the numbing flood of meaningless content and nihilistic culture that will safely neuter their descendants, than an effective agent for change.

tachyonbeam 6y ago
That's why I said sometimes misguided. We did get gay marriage. We are getting marijuana legalization and decriminalization of many drugs, which is good in terms of inequality and social issues, because it puts less people into private prisons for victimless crimes. But I do agree that there is a flood of nonsense. When I was a kid, it used to be "race and gender shouldn't matter". Now they define you by your race and gender, it's the only thing that matters. Just throws gasoline on the fire IMO.
- cambalache 6y ago
  > We did get gay marriage. We are getting marijuana legalization and decriminalization of many drugs, You are giving way too much credit to the SJW millennial crew. None of those things were enacted because of them.
  - tachyonbeam 6y ago
    Probably true. Nevertheless, positive change did happen. Let's hope that sanity prevails.
  - manuelabeledo 6y ago
    True. We have the progressives to thank for those.
- daotoad 6y ago
  I don't want to start a flamewar or anything. I think you are misunderstanding the issues around race and gender. And it's not really your fault--messaging on this issue is not very clear and there has been a massively toxic tendency to end discussion by declaring someone "a racist" and shutting them out. When I was young, my progressive, well-meaning parents taught me that I should be color-blind and not see race or gender, thinking that a generation of such people would naturally make a world with more equality of opportunity. The problem is that that didn't work. All it did was create a generation of people who were illiterate in regards to the impacts of race and gender discrimination. It created a blind spot where those who wanted to discriminate could hide. Data shows that race and gender have wide reaching impacts on one's ability to access services including education and healthcare, interactions with the justice system, and employment. The sad truth is that categories of race and gender have an outsized impact on your prospects and people have always been defined by them in this country. In some sense, the earlier campaigns were successful--most people agree that overt segregation and discrimination are a bad thing. That's huge progress. But since we have mostly ceased practicing overt forms of discrimination, how is it that these disparities persist? There are two options either there are unconscious and unintentional biases that have a significant impact or the lingering side effects of discrimination keep historically marginalized groups at a significant disadvantage. (I think both cases are true, but that doesn't impact my argument.) If we want to understand why we have these disparate outcomes, we have to pay attention to race and gender and how we behave in relation these categories. Only by doing so can we hope to resolve the underlying issues that drive social imbalance. If you want to learn more about this from someone far, far more expert on the topic than myself, I recommend listening to some interviews with or articles by Ibram X. Kendi. His work is insightful and accessible. https://www.ibramxkendi.com/ https://www.ibramxkendi.com/

manuelabeledo 6y ago

This is quite an American centric response! > IMO the worst thing is government surveillance, and our lack of true democracy. Agreed on the lack of democracy, although it is really nothing new. Gerrymandering has been an issue for decades now. Corporate lobbyists have been openly bribing bureaucrats for quite a while too. The 1980s are, on this regard, not that different from the present. This is also compatible with a cyberpunk-esque world, though. > Just look at the opening sequence of Blade Runner (staged in 2019?), and tell me we really live in that world. Apart from the flying cars, I can think of several metropolis that look almost the same, including the pollution levels. I was in Beijing five years ago, around September. Out of four days, I think I saw the blue sky only once, the day of my arrival, and it was because the authorities banned the circulation of 2.5 million cars for two weeks in August. I believe it was something related to a national holiday, but I'm not quite sure. LA is not that far from it either. > It's definitely not the case that economic inequality is "just accepted". Yes, it's a part of our lives, but the social justice moment is also huge, and sometimes misguided. No comments on the "misguided" bit. To be blunt, economic inequality is accepted, especially in the US. The ideas of the Protestant work ethic and the Prosperity theology, so deeply rooted in the American psyche, revolve around it. There is no movement that would change that in a generation or two, because too much is at stake. Gay marriage took centuries to be legalized, and it wasn't until 2003 that SCOTUS ruled sodomy laws unconstitutional. Women's suffrage in the US was legalized in the 1920s, over a century after the country was founded, and still women struggle to enjoy full autonomous rights until quite recently. Many people of color couldn't vote until the mid 1960s! Or have the same access to essential services as other citizens. My point is, these movements need to exert a constant pressure on society, for decades if needed, to achieve results. And, on the other hand, it may only take a few months or years to undo everything. I'm pointing here to the 1970s and 1980s, when many individual protections were repealed, and corporations of all kinds took advantage of that. In summary, I respect your optimism, but a cyberpunk world also has electric cars and demonstrations on the streets.

tachyonbeam 6y ago
> I was in Beijing five years ago China is ahead of everyone when it comes to electric cars and solar energy. They've fully embraced that this is a technological change that must and will happen. Precisely because of how aware they were of the air pollution issue.