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And as a customer, I'm super happy about this. You can't charge me a subscription that I can't figure out how to cancel. You have a much harder time slipping

And as a customer, I'm super happy about this. You can't charge me a subscription that I can't figure out how to cancel. You have a much harder time slipping in "features" that abuse my privacy. You don't get my email address or my information unless I want you to. I am guaranteed that this is all true on any iPhone I pick up. You might even say I'm paying them to protect me from your poor business practices.

wavefunction 6y ago
I wouldn't say that in this context which is an entirely voluntary proposition.
TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
But that is exactly what PayPal pioneered and still does. So why can’t I use PayPal to buy iOS apps? (There are other problems with PayPal, so if that bothers you, replace X with PayPal that has the same privacy and subscription management features)
inopinatus 6y ago
This mindset is the basis of half the dystopian fiction on my bookshelves, and Aldous Huxley wasn't even the first.
echelon 6y ago
> You can't charge me a subscription that I can't figure out how to cancel. This we need to regulate. This is what our lawmakers should be doing. Apple isn't doing this out of their own generosity. They're trying to get a slice of the pie. It's also why they shut down mobile advertising IDs, which on the surface sounds delightful. Ultimately that's more commerce going through Apple rails. More pie. Apple is strong-arming here to put more people in their walled garden. The government should craft legislation to protect privacy and should stop the "pretend privacy" game Apple is playing. Apple doesn't care about you, otherwise you wouldn't have to pay extra for a phone charger and they wouldn't squash 3rd party repair shops. > You don't get my email address or my information unless I want you to. This prevents businesses from establishing their own, hard-earned relationships with customers. Apple has your email and sends you promotional material all the time. Do you send those to trash? > slipping in "features" that abuse my privacy Apple already abuses your privacy, and if you don't see it you're being naive. They track which apps are running on Mac, and they recently caused an outage doing so. This is part of their push to ultimately lock down that platform behind an App Store. They do the same on iPhone. They know your location, your files, your chat history. You trust them. Mark Zuckerberg had a quote for that. Sorry for the privacy-invading Giphy/Facebook link, but Apple is literally this: http://gph.is/XJxIL3 http://gph.is/XJxIL3
- danielheath 6y ago
  > This prevents businesses from establishing their own, hard-earned relationships with customers. It requires them to earn the relationship instead of leveraging a single transaction into an unwanted intrusion.
fbelzile 6y ago
That's fine, use the App Store if you want! It's the fact that Apple doesn't let you, the owner of your phone and licensed user of iOS, take full advantage of what you purchased. The inability to side load apps you want to use outside of the App Store (or to use another app store) is an artificial limitation. It's created from greed or fear of competition from a better managed app store. I think what people are arguing for is a similar model to macOS. Have you ever heard anyone get mad that they were able to download apps outside of the App Store on macOS? No! You can use the App Store if you want, but you're still able to trust a third-party developer to use the device you purchased to it's full potential.
- CubsFan1060 6y ago
  "And that's fine, buy a device that doesn't have the walled garden feature!" (yes, feature here is a bit tongue in cheek) You know what other benefit I get from it? My parents, children, and friends who have iPhones have the same benefits. When my mom calls me for help, I know for sure where all her apps came from. I know that they've been at least somewhat vetted and come from a singular trusted source. I know that "some kid from school" didn't show my kid how to use this "cool other app store" where you can download "all kinds of free stuff". I have not yet had to help one of them get malware off of their iOS devices. My point here is that this has been the deal for over a decade. If you bought an iOS device, you knew the deal. This isn't new. Many of us bought it BECAUSE of these. And you may think that having access to other app stores doesn't affect me, but it does. At this point, I don't understand why people who don't like it are buying iOS devices. There are options out there that do exactly what you want. Why did you buy an option that doesn't have the features you want, and now you want to take away a feature many of us like?
  - fbelzile 6y ago
    > My parents, children, and friends who have iPhones have the same benefits. Your parents are consenting adults. What makes you think your parents don't deserve to be trusted to use an app they want to use? As for children, just don't give out your Apple ID password. Children under 13 are not allowed to create accounts. > I have not yet had to help one of them get malware off of their iOS devices. This is a completely different issue. Apps can still be sand-boxed for security. > Why did you buy an option that doesn't have the features you want, and now you want to take away a feature many of us like? You have nothing to lose here. I really don't understand why you're still calling this a feature.
mrtksn 6y ago
Developers are pissed of because there’s something that can be technically possible and can benefit them but they are not allowed to do it. It’s the exactly same mentality of intelligence agencies: There’s a microphone, location tracker and communication logger in the pocket of every citizen but they are not allowed to access those! Ban encryption to make my job easier! Give me a backdoor to everyone to make my job easier! I am a developer too but I try not forgetting that I am also a user. As a user I don’t feel obligated to make developers job easier who screwed me many times before, I love dealing with Apple and I like keeping it that way. If you think you can do it better, go do it on Android and if it happens to be good I may switch. There’s no monopoly. I don’t know why developers think they have right to access me. Apple made the thing and I bought it from them knowing what I am getting into and I have no complaints. I am being taken care well and I will ditch Apple if this changes.

wavefunction 6y ago

I wouldn't say that in this context which is an entirely voluntary proposition.

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago

But that is exactly what PayPal pioneered and still does. So why can’t I use PayPal to buy iOS apps? (There are other problems with PayPal, so if that bothers you, replace X with PayPal that has the same privacy and subscription management features)

inopinatus 6y ago

This mindset is the basis of half the dystopian fiction on my bookshelves, and Aldous Huxley wasn't even the first.

echelon 6y ago

> You can't charge me a subscription that I can't figure out how to cancel. This we need to regulate. This is what our lawmakers should be doing. Apple isn't doing this out of their own generosity. They're trying to get a slice of the pie. It's also why they shut down mobile advertising IDs, which on the surface sounds delightful. Ultimately that's more commerce going through Apple rails. More pie. Apple is strong-arming here to put more people in their walled garden. The government should craft legislation to protect privacy and should stop the "pretend privacy" game Apple is playing. Apple doesn't care about you, otherwise you wouldn't have to pay extra for a phone charger and they wouldn't squash 3rd party repair shops. > You don't get my email address or my information unless I want you to. This prevents businesses from establishing their own, hard-earned relationships with customers. Apple has your email and sends you promotional material all the time. Do you send those to trash? > slipping in "features" that abuse my privacy Apple already abuses your privacy, and if you don't see it you're being naive. They track which apps are running on Mac, and they recently caused an outage doing so. This is part of their push to ultimately lock down that platform behind an App Store. They do the same on iPhone. They know your location, your files, your chat history. You trust them. Mark Zuckerberg had a quote for that. Sorry for the privacy-invading Giphy/Facebook link, but Apple is literally this: http://gph.is/XJxIL3 http://gph.is/XJxIL3

danielheath 6y ago
> This prevents businesses from establishing their own, hard-earned relationships with customers. It requires them to earn the relationship instead of leveraging a single transaction into an unwanted intrusion.

fbelzile 6y ago

That's fine, use the App Store if you want! It's the fact that Apple doesn't let you, the owner of your phone and licensed user of iOS, take full advantage of what you purchased. The inability to side load apps you want to use outside of the App Store (or to use another app store) is an artificial limitation. It's created from greed or fear of competition from a better managed app store. I think what people are arguing for is a similar model to macOS. Have you ever heard anyone get mad that they were able to download apps outside of the App Store on macOS? No! You can use the App Store if you want, but you're still able to trust a third-party developer to use the device you purchased to it's full potential.

CubsFan1060 6y ago
"And that's fine, buy a device that doesn't have the walled garden feature!" (yes, feature here is a bit tongue in cheek) You know what other benefit I get from it? My parents, children, and friends who have iPhones have the same benefits. When my mom calls me for help, I know for sure where all her apps came from. I know that they've been at least somewhat vetted and come from a singular trusted source. I know that "some kid from school" didn't show my kid how to use this "cool other app store" where you can download "all kinds of free stuff". I have not yet had to help one of them get malware off of their iOS devices. My point here is that this has been the deal for over a decade. If you bought an iOS device, you knew the deal. This isn't new. Many of us bought it BECAUSE of these. And you may think that having access to other app stores doesn't affect me, but it does. At this point, I don't understand why people who don't like it are buying iOS devices. There are options out there that do exactly what you want. Why did you buy an option that doesn't have the features you want, and now you want to take away a feature many of us like?
- fbelzile 6y ago
  > My parents, children, and friends who have iPhones have the same benefits. Your parents are consenting adults. What makes you think your parents don't deserve to be trusted to use an app they want to use? As for children, just don't give out your Apple ID password. Children under 13 are not allowed to create accounts. > I have not yet had to help one of them get malware off of their iOS devices. This is a completely different issue. Apps can still be sand-boxed for security. > Why did you buy an option that doesn't have the features you want, and now you want to take away a feature many of us like? You have nothing to lose here. I really don't understand why you're still calling this a feature.

mrtksn 6y ago

Developers are pissed of because there’s something that can be technically possible and can benefit them but they are not allowed to do it. It’s the exactly same mentality of intelligence agencies: There’s a microphone, location tracker and communication logger in the pocket of every citizen but they are not allowed to access those! Ban encryption to make my job easier! Give me a backdoor to everyone to make my job easier! I am a developer too but I try not forgetting that I am also a user. As a user I don’t feel obligated to make developers job easier who screwed me many times before, I love dealing with Apple and I like keeping it that way. If you think you can do it better, go do it on Android and if it happens to be good I may switch. There’s no monopoly. I don’t know why developers think they have right to access me. Apple made the thing and I bought it from them knowing what I am getting into and I have no complaints. I am being taken care well and I will ditch Apple if this changes.