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> Benjamin Franklin, in between spending time flying kites and visiting prostitutes What the hell is your problem with Ben Franklin, NPR? Can't you talk about

> Benjamin Franklin, in between spending time flying kites and visiting prostitutes What the hell is your problem with Ben Franklin, NPR? Can't you talk about any of the thousands of things he did before jumping straight to his sins? Otherwise it's a good article.

throwawaysea 6y ago
The cynic in me feels this type of jab is part of a broad trend by activists (and activist journalists) in tearing down the 'founding fathers' or 'fundamental principles' of America. Attacking those symbols leaves open a vacuum for other ideologies to come in - it's a key part of making a pivot happen towards different principles (whether that is anti-free-speech or pro-collectivism or whatever else).
- kace91 6y ago
  This reaction is pretty unusual for me, coming from Europe. Glaring sins is basically how we can tell our historical figures apart in history class (you know the king that was extra ugly due to inbreeding, the one that liked to have a bajillion lovers, the one that was a religious nut, etc). I can't think of a single historical figure that is treated with reverent respect to the point that such a jab would cause even a blink, _including religious figures._
  - throwaway0a5e 6y ago
    There's been a recent (say 15yr, picking up a lot of speed in the last 5) to use these failings as an excuse to ignore everything that these people had to say. The fact that Jefferson owned slaves doesn't really cast any shade on what he had to say about aborculture.
  - throwaway03857 6y ago
    Gotta agree with this. From the outside the American habit of venerating national symbols in a quasi religious manner, be it the "founding fathers", constitution, flag, office of the president, national anthem etc. is really weird and something more often seen in dictatorships than democracies.
  - franciscop 6y ago
    That is throwawaysea point isn't it? We point out the sins of the monarchs of the past since we have given to a new political system. For that matter, you will rarely see a teacher referring to a recent politician they like by their glaring sins (though if they are good teachers they will at least point them out once).
- majormajor 6y ago
  It's probably something of a response of a 20th century trend to turn US history into religion. "Patriotism" has been promoted to extreme lengths in the last century, with fun shit like the Pledge of Allegiance. (Where would we be had we pledged allegiance to the king instead of having a revolution?) And "un-American" heretical ideas like communism were weeded out with religious fervor. I think the massive reduction in frequency of Constitutional amendments is related. We were supposed to be improving and adapting our democracy on the fly, but now we've been convinced we're supposed to treat is as holy writ instead.
- burntoutfire 6y ago
  But, also, prostitution is supposed the be viewed just as a morally neutral "sex work", not different from being a hairdresser or sandwich artist?
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
mdgrech23 6y ago
it's the age of retribution. If you were male and european no matter how great your accomplishments were when you were alive you will be judged by the standards of today. On the other hand I think a lot of ppl forget that actions they take for granted today like eating meat or having a heavy carbon footprint may not be taken so kindly by history.
gonzo41 6y ago
In other parts of the world, like europe, visiting prostitutes isn't a sin. That's an American sin.
cathyreisenwitz 6y ago
I think the better question is what the hell is your problem with prostitutes
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  The author was the one who brought it up in a negative light. I personally think Benjamin Franklin's antics make him even more qualified to give life advice.
  - franciscop 6y ago
    I am not sure of that; was flying kites brought in a negative light? No, right? It reads to me like two "amusing" things he used to do (without moral judgement), but it could be meant to be a positive and a negative for contrast as well. I don't think flying a kite is strongly positive, more like just amusing, so I'm inclined to say those are two surprising facts.
cookie_monsta 6y ago
But isn't that just the result of your moral judgment on his pastimes (as sinful I guess). For me, the idea behind lumping visiting prostitutes together with flying kites was about pointing out that, regardless of reputation, BF did some frivolous stuff (and then went on to write an essay about how important time was).
- Zenbit_UX 6y ago
  > BF did some frivolous stuff He wasn't an autist who had an obsession with kites, he was conducting expirements with electricity during a thunderstorm.

throwawaysea 6y ago

The cynic in me feels this type of jab is part of a broad trend by activists (and activist journalists) in tearing down the 'founding fathers' or 'fundamental principles' of America. Attacking those symbols leaves open a vacuum for other ideologies to come in - it's a key part of making a pivot happen towards different principles (whether that is anti-free-speech or pro-collectivism or whatever else).

kace91 6y ago
This reaction is pretty unusual for me, coming from Europe. Glaring sins is basically how we can tell our historical figures apart in history class (you know the king that was extra ugly due to inbreeding, the one that liked to have a bajillion lovers, the one that was a religious nut, etc). I can't think of a single historical figure that is treated with reverent respect to the point that such a jab would cause even a blink, _including religious figures._
- throwaway0a5e 6y ago
  There's been a recent (say 15yr, picking up a lot of speed in the last 5) to use these failings as an excuse to ignore everything that these people had to say. The fact that Jefferson owned slaves doesn't really cast any shade on what he had to say about aborculture.
- throwaway03857 6y ago
  Gotta agree with this. From the outside the American habit of venerating national symbols in a quasi religious manner, be it the "founding fathers", constitution, flag, office of the president, national anthem etc. is really weird and something more often seen in dictatorships than democracies.
- franciscop 6y ago
  That is throwawaysea point isn't it? We point out the sins of the monarchs of the past since we have given to a new political system. For that matter, you will rarely see a teacher referring to a recent politician they like by their glaring sins (though if they are good teachers they will at least point them out once).
majormajor 6y ago
It's probably something of a response of a 20th century trend to turn US history into religion. "Patriotism" has been promoted to extreme lengths in the last century, with fun shit like the Pledge of Allegiance. (Where would we be had we pledged allegiance to the king instead of having a revolution?) And "un-American" heretical ideas like communism were weeded out with religious fervor. I think the massive reduction in frequency of Constitutional amendments is related. We were supposed to be improving and adapting our democracy on the fly, but now we've been convinced we're supposed to treat is as holy writ instead.
burntoutfire 6y ago
But, also, prostitution is supposed the be viewed just as a morally neutral "sex work", not different from being a hairdresser or sandwich artist?

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

mdgrech23 6y ago

it's the age of retribution. If you were male and european no matter how great your accomplishments were when you were alive you will be judged by the standards of today. On the other hand I think a lot of ppl forget that actions they take for granted today like eating meat or having a heavy carbon footprint may not be taken so kindly by history.

gonzo41 6y ago

In other parts of the world, like europe, visiting prostitutes isn't a sin. That's an American sin.

cathyreisenwitz 6y ago

I think the better question is what the hell is your problem with prostitutes

throwaway0a5e 6y ago
The author was the one who brought it up in a negative light. I personally think Benjamin Franklin's antics make him even more qualified to give life advice.
- franciscop 6y ago
  I am not sure of that; was flying kites brought in a negative light? No, right? It reads to me like two "amusing" things he used to do (without moral judgement), but it could be meant to be a positive and a negative for contrast as well. I don't think flying a kite is strongly positive, more like just amusing, so I'm inclined to say those are two surprising facts.

cookie_monsta 6y ago

But isn't that just the result of your moral judgment on his pastimes (as sinful I guess). For me, the idea behind lumping visiting prostitutes together with flying kites was about pointing out that, regardless of reputation, BF did some frivolous stuff (and then went on to write an essay about how important time was).

Zenbit_UX 6y ago
> BF did some frivolous stuff He wasn't an autist who had an obsession with kites, he was conducting expirements with electricity during a thunderstorm.