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That is also why they are currently preventing competition on web browser engines on iOS, by forcing other browsers to use theirs (webkit). That way they can li

by agust 6y ago

That is also why they are currently preventing competition on web browser engines on iOS, by forcing other browsers to use theirs (webkit). That way they can limit the web app capabilities, by not implementing APIs like the Push API, and make the web look very bad by not fixing bugs. I'm wondering why Mozilla, amongst other companies, hasn't taken action against this anti-competitive behaviour.

pseudalopex 6y ago
Mozilla wins. Apple has to allow other engines on iOS. Most users switch to Chrome. Most developers stop supporting anything else. Mozilla loses.
- sjwright 6y ago
  Indeed, say what you will about Safari on iOS, it certainly forces some amount of diversity in the overall browser market. (I realise this is a controversial opinion but I don’t lament the slower feature release cadence of Safari because IMHO the web is already far too complex and feature rich for its own good.)
- lern_too_spel 6y ago
  I don't follow your logic. If a Gecko-based browser could be installed on iOS, there would be more Gecko users, which would mean developers would be slightly more likely to check rendering in Gecko. By what logic would more developers test against Gecko in the status quo. The only losers would be Safari and a good chunk of Apple's "services revenue" for selling the default search engine setting.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    I think the argument is that users will install Chrome instead of Mozilla, further pushing up Chrome's market share. Even as Mozilla's share increases slightly, the loss in Safari's will lead to a super-super-majority of Chrome and thus developers not caring about any alternative browsers at all.
    - lern_too_spel 6y ago
      But they wouldn't care about Gecko-based browsers any less than they do now. They would simply not care about Webkit-based browsers. If anything, the developers who can now use a Gecko-based mobile browser who couldn't before would now care to test it. Meanwhile, Mozilla's job will be easier, only having to target mobile compatibility with one rendering engine.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        When a browser has 90+% market share, you can make a credible business argument about why you can ignore every other browser.
        lern_too_spel 6y ago
        When a browser has under X% market share, you can make a credible argument about why you can ignore it. That is happening right now. If developers could use it on their devices, they would be less likely to ignore it. It's just a very strange argument for justifying Apple abusing its users for search engine revenue.
        pseudalopex 6y ago
        It's an explanation why Mozilla won't fight Apple harder. Web developers don't just use 1 or 2 mobile devices they own. They develop with desktops where they could use Firefox. They test with desktops or emulated Android devices where they could use Firefox. They find ways to test Safari even if they don't have anything that can run it. They used to find ways to test IE even if they didn't use Windows.
        lern_too_spel 6y ago
        They aren't going to go out of their way to emulate mobile Firefox on desktop Firefox, but if they use mobile Firefox as I do and notice bugs on their pages, they will fix them.

by agust 6y ago

pseudalopex 6y ago

Mozilla wins. Apple has to allow other engines on iOS. Most users switch to Chrome. Most developers stop supporting anything else. Mozilla loses.

sjwright 6y ago
Indeed, say what you will about Safari on iOS, it certainly forces some amount of diversity in the overall browser market. (I realise this is a controversial opinion but I don’t lament the slower feature release cadence of Safari because IMHO the web is already far too complex and feature rich for its own good.)
lern_too_spel 6y ago
I don't follow your logic. If a Gecko-based browser could be installed on iOS, there would be more Gecko users, which would mean developers would be slightly more likely to check rendering in Gecko. By what logic would more developers test against Gecko in the status quo. The only losers would be Safari and a good chunk of Apple's "services revenue" for selling the default search engine setting.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  I think the argument is that users will install Chrome instead of Mozilla, further pushing up Chrome's market share. Even as Mozilla's share increases slightly, the loss in Safari's will lead to a super-super-majority of Chrome and thus developers not caring about any alternative browsers at all.
  - lern_too_spel 6y ago
    But they wouldn't care about Gecko-based browsers any less than they do now. They would simply not care about Webkit-based browsers. If anything, the developers who can now use a Gecko-based mobile browser who couldn't before would now care to test it. Meanwhile, Mozilla's job will be easier, only having to target mobile compatibility with one rendering engine.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      When a browser has 90+% market share, you can make a credible business argument about why you can ignore every other browser.
      - lern_too_spel 6y ago
        When a browser has under X% market share, you can make a credible argument about why you can ignore it. That is happening right now. If developers could use it on their devices, they would be less likely to ignore it. It's just a very strange argument for justifying Apple abusing its users for search engine revenue.
        pseudalopex 6y ago
        It's an explanation why Mozilla won't fight Apple harder. Web developers don't just use 1 or 2 mobile devices they own. They develop with desktops where they could use Firefox. They test with desktops or emulated Android devices where they could use Firefox. They find ways to test Safari even if they don't have anything that can run it. They used to find ways to test IE even if they didn't use Windows.
        lern_too_spel 6y ago
        They aren't going to go out of their way to emulate mobile Firefox on desktop Firefox, but if they use mobile Firefox as I do and notice bugs on their pages, they will fix them.