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Serving the public should always be a priority for a government institution. In the case of the weather, disseminating the forecasts is just as critical as maki

Serving the public should always be a priority for a government institution. In the case of the weather, disseminating the forecasts is just as critical as making the forecasts in the first place. These forecasts directly affect everything from air travel to crop planting/harvesting to sea travel. They are critical for our economic (and citizen's) ongoing health. And the internet, for better or worse, is the primary means of dissemination for the NOAA. Failing in this is failing at one of their greatest duties, IMO.

yetihehe 6y ago
Instead, government institutions which are funded by government, now serve government as their main client. Public, which pays government, not institutions, is not a priority. Effectively government became an entity which is not serving the public but only itself.
- Retric 6y ago
  The “problem” is if NOAA directly provides data to the general public then an entire ecosystem of companies that simply gather NOAA data and pass it along to the public suddenly lose money. Those companies then try very hard to limit distribution of NOAA data by NOAA while maximizing the government spending on accurate forecasts. It’s got nothing to do with government supporting it’s self and 100% to do with legislated corruption that’s dependent on public officials playing their role.
  - 2trill2spill 6y ago
    NOAA already provides the data to the general public, its all there, so I'm not sure about the "if" in your first sentence.
    - Retric 6y ago
      It’s possible to get NOAA data directly, but in terms of actual use it’s very low, because of ‘poor’ execution. That’s working as intended.
      - falcolas 6y ago
        Given that General Aviation uses NOAA weather data, that alone makes the NOAA data more useful than almost any other source. They also provide data to our fishing and ocean transport ships. And, it's been available to the public via the internet for at least two decades I know of at nws.noaa.gov (which now redirects to weather.gov). NOAA's data is a stupidly valuable resource, even discounting the resellers.
      - 2trill2spill 6y ago
        You can just go to national weather service site which uses NOAA data and it's quite human friendly[1]. Also I don't understand how you can call the raw data not very useful, when it's literally the backbone of weather forecasting in this country. Every weather forecasting app uses the raw NOAA data, its there for you to use as well[2]. The hardest part of using the raw data is the learning curve related to meteorological programing, not getting access to the data. [1]: https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=40.76031000000006&lon=-111.88821999999999#.X9K8O8JME5k https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=40.76031000000... [2]: https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/data/global-forecast-system/access/grid-004-0.5-degree/forecast/202012/20201208/ https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/data/global-forecast-system/access...
        Retric 6y ago
        By use I am referring to people directly using NOAA or other government apps/websites to directly access it without intermediates. Other companies repacking that same data bring very little to the table. It’s the same issue where the IRS could in theory cheaply provide a user friendly tax prep software for ~1$ per taxpayer. However, tax prep software manufacturers have a massive incentive to avoid that. Further, they are going to lobby heavily for the issue which impacts themselves where most people don’t care about losing out in ~50$ per year.
        2trill2spill 6y ago
        > By use I am referring to people directly using NOAA or other government apps/websites to directly access it without intermediates. Other companies repacking that same data bring very little to the table. Huh? Did you even look at the links I provided above? They are literally what your talking about. One is a free government run website that any person can use to get a weather forecast, the other is a free government run website where any person can download raw weather data and use any way they like. So no intermediates or companies required.
    - 2trill2spill 6y ago
      Why are people downvoting my comment above? It's true you can download the raw NOAA data, just go here if you don't believe me: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/data-access/model-data/model-datasets/global-forcast-system-gfs https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/data-access/model-data/model-datas... And if your not able to use the raw data go to the NWS site which displays it in human friendly form: https://www.weather.gov/ https://www.weather.gov/
      - donw 6y ago
        Didn't downvote myself, but if I had to lay money on it, I'd guess that you got downvoted for not providing links to the raw NOAA data? Sources FTW. On that note: thank you for providing those links! I learned something new today, and I can think of some uses for that data.
        2trill2spill 6y ago
        > Didn't downvote myself, but if I had to lay money on it, I'd guess that you got downvoted for not providing links to the raw NOAA data? Sources FTW. Yeah probably true, I didn't post a source because I thought it was common knowledge which in retrospect I'm not sure why I thought that. And I'm glad you enjoyed the links, when I first started looking into the raw NOAA data and PRISM[1] data it took a bit to figure out what to do with it. But I've found the GDAL library helpful for parsing various weather data formats, and there are a lot of them[2]. [1]: https://prism.oregonstate.edu/ https://prism.oregonstate.edu/ [2]: https://gdal.org/ https://gdal.org/
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        donw 6y ago
        > Yeah probably true, I didn't post a source because I thought it was common knowledge which in retrospect I'm not sure why I thought that. There's a name for this phenomenon! It's a cognitive bias called the "Curse of Knowledge": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge In a nutshell, we instinctively assume others know what we know. This was probably true when we lived in small tribes on the Serengeti, but not so much in the global information age. It takes practice, but you can grow the habit of always providing a little extra context without sounding patronizing, as well, at least in-person, a better sense for when people are following the conversation. What helped me grow this skill was lots of pair-programming, because that daily pair rotation forces you to be really good at context-sharing on the quick.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kurthr 6y ago
I think you need to consider whether it is the public who should be served in the free market or well connected lobbyists who have been highly paid to corrupt the executive branch. The NWS will not serve the public with what they trivially could so that a private corporation can make (more) money filling that niche and continue supporting politicians and their friend's lifestyle. That is the crony-capitalist way and corporate first amendment rights to spend money any way they want shall not be abridged (by this Supreme Court). Stolen from a parallel thread: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-14/trump-s-pick-to-lead-weather-agency-spent-30-years-fighting-it https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-14/trump-s-p...
jfrunyon 6y ago
We're not discussing serving the public, we're discussing serving for-profit companies who make money off of the NWS's data. Those are the only people this policy change would affect, not you or me going to the NWS website.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dismalpedigree 6y ago
  This. Accuweather and weather.com have literally leeched all the data they can get from NOAA and then they resell it at a tidy profit. This change does not affect the general public but does affect the big players.
  - brootstrap 6y ago
    I was on the call. my work uses these data and we needed to know how things were changing. Not only external users but also some internal apps n such. One guy from a GIS section talked up and was like, hey is this going to affect the maps on water.weather.gov and other sites? The head dude was like, yup it is. So even internal agencies are getting affected by it. Overall tho yes. Some large players take the data here , process it, and resell at larger value. Some might call it a value add. Accuweather is shit tho so dont ever go to them for anything

yetihehe 6y ago

Instead, government institutions which are funded by government, now serve government as their main client. Public, which pays government, not institutions, is not a priority. Effectively government became an entity which is not serving the public but only itself.

Retric 6y ago
The “problem” is if NOAA directly provides data to the general public then an entire ecosystem of companies that simply gather NOAA data and pass it along to the public suddenly lose money. Those companies then try very hard to limit distribution of NOAA data by NOAA while maximizing the government spending on accurate forecasts. It’s got nothing to do with government supporting it’s self and 100% to do with legislated corruption that’s dependent on public officials playing their role.
- 2trill2spill 6y ago
  NOAA already provides the data to the general public, its all there, so I'm not sure about the "if" in your first sentence.
  - Retric 6y ago
    It’s possible to get NOAA data directly, but in terms of actual use it’s very low, because of ‘poor’ execution. That’s working as intended.
    - falcolas 6y ago
      Given that General Aviation uses NOAA weather data, that alone makes the NOAA data more useful than almost any other source. They also provide data to our fishing and ocean transport ships. And, it's been available to the public via the internet for at least two decades I know of at nws.noaa.gov (which now redirects to weather.gov). NOAA's data is a stupidly valuable resource, even discounting the resellers.
    - 2trill2spill 6y ago
      You can just go to national weather service site which uses NOAA data and it's quite human friendly[1]. Also I don't understand how you can call the raw data not very useful, when it's literally the backbone of weather forecasting in this country. Every weather forecasting app uses the raw NOAA data, its there for you to use as well[2]. The hardest part of using the raw data is the learning curve related to meteorological programing, not getting access to the data. [1]: https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=40.76031000000006&lon=-111.88821999999999#.X9K8O8JME5k https://forecast.weather.gov/MapClick.php?lat=40.76031000000... [2]: https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/data/global-forecast-system/access/grid-004-0.5-degree/forecast/202012/20201208/ https://www.ncei.noaa.gov/data/global-forecast-system/access...
      - Retric 6y ago
        By use I am referring to people directly using NOAA or other government apps/websites to directly access it without intermediates. Other companies repacking that same data bring very little to the table. It’s the same issue where the IRS could in theory cheaply provide a user friendly tax prep software for ~1$ per taxpayer. However, tax prep software manufacturers have a massive incentive to avoid that. Further, they are going to lobby heavily for the issue which impacts themselves where most people don’t care about losing out in ~50$ per year.
        2trill2spill 6y ago
        > By use I am referring to people directly using NOAA or other government apps/websites to directly access it without intermediates. Other companies repacking that same data bring very little to the table. Huh? Did you even look at the links I provided above? They are literally what your talking about. One is a free government run website that any person can use to get a weather forecast, the other is a free government run website where any person can download raw weather data and use any way they like. So no intermediates or companies required.
  - 2trill2spill 6y ago
    Why are people downvoting my comment above? It's true you can download the raw NOAA data, just go here if you don't believe me: https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/data-access/model-data/model-datasets/global-forcast-system-gfs https://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/data-access/model-data/model-datas... And if your not able to use the raw data go to the NWS site which displays it in human friendly form: https://www.weather.gov/ https://www.weather.gov/
    - donw 6y ago
      Didn't downvote myself, but if I had to lay money on it, I'd guess that you got downvoted for not providing links to the raw NOAA data? Sources FTW. On that note: thank you for providing those links! I learned something new today, and I can think of some uses for that data.
      - 2trill2spill 6y ago
        > Didn't downvote myself, but if I had to lay money on it, I'd guess that you got downvoted for not providing links to the raw NOAA data? Sources FTW. Yeah probably true, I didn't post a source because I thought it was common knowledge which in retrospect I'm not sure why I thought that. And I'm glad you enjoyed the links, when I first started looking into the raw NOAA data and PRISM[1] data it took a bit to figure out what to do with it. But I've found the GDAL library helpful for parsing various weather data formats, and there are a lot of them[2]. [1]: https://prism.oregonstate.edu/ https://prism.oregonstate.edu/ [2]: https://gdal.org/ https://gdal.org/
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        donw 6y ago
        > Yeah probably true, I didn't post a source because I thought it was common knowledge which in retrospect I'm not sure why I thought that. There's a name for this phenomenon! It's a cognitive bias called the "Curse of Knowledge": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_of_knowledge In a nutshell, we instinctively assume others know what we know. This was probably true when we lived in small tribes on the Serengeti, but not so much in the global information age. It takes practice, but you can grow the habit of always providing a little extra context without sounding patronizing, as well, at least in-person, a better sense for when people are following the conversation. What helped me grow this skill was lots of pair-programming, because that daily pair rotation forces you to be really good at context-sharing on the quick.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

kurthr 6y ago

I think you need to consider whether it is the public who should be served in the free market or well connected lobbyists who have been highly paid to corrupt the executive branch. The NWS will not serve the public with what they trivially could so that a private corporation can make (more) money filling that niche and continue supporting politicians and their friend's lifestyle. That is the crony-capitalist way and corporate first amendment rights to spend money any way they want shall not be abridged (by this Supreme Court). Stolen from a parallel thread: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-14/trump-s-pick-to-lead-weather-agency-spent-30-years-fighting-it https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-06-14/trump-s-p...

jfrunyon 6y ago

We're not discussing serving the public, we're discussing serving for-profit companies who make money off of the NWS's data. Those are the only people this policy change would affect, not you or me going to the NWS website.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
dismalpedigree 6y ago
This. Accuweather and weather.com have literally leeched all the data they can get from NOAA and then they resell it at a tidy profit. This change does not affect the general public but does affect the big players.
- brootstrap 6y ago
  I was on the call. my work uses these data and we needed to know how things were changing. Not only external users but also some internal apps n such. One guy from a GIS section talked up and was like, hey is this going to affect the maps on water.weather.gov and other sites? The head dude was like, yup it is. So even internal agencies are getting affected by it. Overall tho yes. Some large players take the data here , process it, and resell at larger value. Some might call it a value add. Accuweather is shit tho so dont ever go to them for anything