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This will probably earn me lots of negative points, but I used Java for eight years and after much initial enthusiasm came to despise it. It was the least produ

This will probably earn me lots of negative points, but I used Java for eight years and after much initial enthusiasm came to despise it. It was the least productive language I have ever used. I have twice tried to learn Clojure and each time I have to install the JVM, I simply quit, despite being intrigued by Clojure itself. Sigh.

aprdm 6y ago
Which one was the least productive language, Java or Clojure ?
- dgb23 6y ago
  Java, which is why they grew an aversion towards the JVM.
  - aprdm 6y ago
    I thought Clojure also required a JVM! Maybe to both haha
    - dgb23 6y ago
      Yes, that was the point. They don't want to use Clojure because Java made them hate the JVM.
      - aprdm 6y ago
        Gotcha, thanks! bad reading from my part
- talkingtab 6y ago
  It was Java. I was intrigued by some of the things with Clojure, especially transducers as described in the post by Rich Hickey https://cognitect.com/blog/2014/8/6/transducers-are-coming https://cognitect.com/blog/2014/8/6/transducers-are-coming.
nanomonkey 6y ago
I found the best way to learn Clojure was to play around with Clojurescript. I have an allergy against javascript, so being able to write front end code in Clojurescript was a dream. There are a few differences, mostly due to the fact that your code is single threaded, but otherwise, what you learn will be applicable to later using with Clojure. I have to say I envy you, already knowing Java, as the hardest part of learning Clojure(script) has been interopt with the host language.
st3fan 6y ago
"each time I have to install the JVM, I simply quit, despite being intrigued by Clojure itself" Weird - what is so problematic about installing a JVM? That is literally an apt-get or install away. If you are learning Clojure then installing the JVM should be the least of your problems. Note that there are a bunch of really nice Clojure starter kits available. And now many options for editors. For learning you don't need anything fancy, even a REPL will do to get you excited. If the JVM turns you off then yeah maybe not try out languages built on top of it.
- mumblemumble 6y ago
  I use Java professionally, and it's a factor in why I recently decided to look away from Clojure and pick a different after-hours language. The problem for me is the JVM itself. I don't like all the excess complexity that comes from its unsurpassably enterprise-grade level of configurability. I don't like being trapped behind a distressingly awkward FFI. I don't like being required to adjust control levers for aspects of memory usage I'd rather be automatic, while simultaneously having little ability to control the aspects of memory usage that matter to me. I don't like having Java's half-baked type model hiding just under the surface no matter what language I choose, just waiting for a chance to jump scare me. et cetera. Don't get me wrong, other platforms have their problems, too. Oftentimes they're even more of a headache. But at least they're different headaches. Yes, I like to program for fun, but that doesn't mean I don't like a change of pace on the weekends.
  - dunefox 6y ago
    You could take a look at Lisp (https://portacle.com https://portacle.com) or Racket. Both great languages not on the JVM (although Lisp is as well with ABCL instead of SBCL, etc.).

aprdm 6y ago

Which one was the least productive language, Java or Clojure ?

dgb23 6y ago
Java, which is why they grew an aversion towards the JVM.
- aprdm 6y ago
  I thought Clojure also required a JVM! Maybe to both haha
  - dgb23 6y ago
    Yes, that was the point. They don't want to use Clojure because Java made them hate the JVM.
    - aprdm 6y ago
      Gotcha, thanks! bad reading from my part
talkingtab 6y ago
It was Java. I was intrigued by some of the things with Clojure, especially transducers as described in the post by Rich Hickey https://cognitect.com/blog/2014/8/6/transducers-are-coming https://cognitect.com/blog/2014/8/6/transducers-are-coming.

nanomonkey 6y ago

I found the best way to learn Clojure was to play around with Clojurescript. I have an allergy against javascript, so being able to write front end code in Clojurescript was a dream. There are a few differences, mostly due to the fact that your code is single threaded, but otherwise, what you learn will be applicable to later using with Clojure. I have to say I envy you, already knowing Java, as the hardest part of learning Clojure(script) has been interopt with the host language.

st3fan 6y ago

"each time I have to install the JVM, I simply quit, despite being intrigued by Clojure itself" Weird - what is so problematic about installing a JVM? That is literally an apt-get or install away. If you are learning Clojure then installing the JVM should be the least of your problems. Note that there are a bunch of really nice Clojure starter kits available. And now many options for editors. For learning you don't need anything fancy, even a REPL will do to get you excited. If the JVM turns you off then yeah maybe not try out languages built on top of it.

mumblemumble 6y ago
I use Java professionally, and it's a factor in why I recently decided to look away from Clojure and pick a different after-hours language. The problem for me is the JVM itself. I don't like all the excess complexity that comes from its unsurpassably enterprise-grade level of configurability. I don't like being trapped behind a distressingly awkward FFI. I don't like being required to adjust control levers for aspects of memory usage I'd rather be automatic, while simultaneously having little ability to control the aspects of memory usage that matter to me. I don't like having Java's half-baked type model hiding just under the surface no matter what language I choose, just waiting for a chance to jump scare me. et cetera. Don't get me wrong, other platforms have their problems, too. Oftentimes they're even more of a headache. But at least they're different headaches. Yes, I like to program for fun, but that doesn't mean I don't like a change of pace on the weekends.
- dunefox 6y ago
  You could take a look at Lisp (https://portacle.com https://portacle.com) or Racket. Both great languages not on the JVM (although Lisp is as well with ABCL instead of SBCL, etc.).