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I'll just throw out that I think CS degrees are a terrible idea, because the fact of the matter is there are virtually no actual CS jobs out there. I got my deg

by hpoe 6y ago

I'll just throw out that I think CS degrees are a terrible idea, because the fact of the matter is there are virtually no actual CS jobs out there. I got my degree in Software Engineering instead, and I find myself far more prepared than many CS colleagues. In my degree we had classes on project management, requirements gathering, structuring and managing databases, heck one class was just about getting your A+ so you could know how to diagnose and repair misbehaving machines and understand things a little bit more holistically. If you want to be an aeronautics engineer, or a civil engineer we don't require you to go get a degree in physics, sure you'll have a lot of classes that deal with physics and you're expected to be familiar with the basics, but you aren't going to have physics as your major. So why the heck do we keep pushing people to CS when their going into Software Engineering? If you think as CS education is still necessary and valuable in your work as an SWE please tell me why, I am curious to understand why if people feel it was useful I want to know why. EDIT: I appreciate the answers I've gotten, as clarification I have noticed several people cite how their degree helped them get a job, or move positions, and I agree that it does that; however I feel a degree in Software Engineering would be just as valid, in these situations. My question is more about is a does a CS degree or an SE degree help make one a better engineer?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deeeeplearning 6y ago
How else will you be able to pass algorithmic whiteboard interviews? Everyone knows that acing those is the only way you can possibly be a good engineer
cmrdporcupine 6y ago
Not sure why you're getting downvoted, I don't think you're wrong. Most industry work is not "computer science" work, but more software mechanics or engineering work. Having the CS background no doubt helps, but having it exclusively is a disadvantage. But it is worth pointing out that there seems to be a great diversity in the content in CS programs, and many schools do emphasize practical industry aspects more than others. Or have aggressive internship programs like U Waterloo, does etc.
petermcneeley 6y ago
Many have switched to using the title "Software Developer" to avoid this confusion. Even jobs that specify "Software Engineer" first ask for CS degrees (or equivalent) The reason for this is that they want people that know computer science (algorithms and such) but people that are not actually scientists.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  Switched to? I guess I really am old. This is how almost all jobs were labelled before 10 or so years ago. Somehow "Software Engineer" became standard, probably under the influence of the FAANGs, in the last decade. It's worth pointing out that here in Google Canada we were recently instructed to start referring to ourselves as Software Developers again, as "Engineer" is at least partially a protected term.
  - petermcneeley 6y ago
    I wish there was a better term. We are not scientist but not mechanics or engineers either. This isnt a minor question. There is an entirely new set of knowledge workers in the new economy that do not have 19th-20th century equivalents.
    - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
      "Programmer" and "Programmer analyst" were titles used frequently when I first started getting into the industry. Then "software developer." Honestly, that's mostly what we do... develop and repair software.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    > It's worth pointing out that here in Google Canada we were recently instructed to start referring to ourselves as Software Developers again, as "Engineer" is at least partially a protected term. That's a good thing.
    - 908B64B197 6y ago
zeku 6y ago
I think my degree is fantastically useful, and I'm relatively young. There is just no way I would have ever learned the things I learned in my CS degree on my own. My degree reshaped my brain. It forced me to be good at math. It forced me to think like a programmer. I failed my first 3 CS classes, but I kept going and ended up graduating top 5% in my CS graduating class. I would never have learned how to program without this degree I am absolutely convinced. Like yeah maybe I could hook some stuff up to an array in python and struggle through a for loop. The CS degree gave me confidence, expertise in solving CS related problems, and for better or worse the market expects me to have this degree and it helped me land a job where I already make 50% more than median household income in my city at only 27. I would take that student debt again in a heartbeat. Two of my friends with 4 year college degrees recently quit their jobs and went back to study CS. I told them to avoid bootcamps, why? I've been a part of the hiring process and people from bootcamps are usually not very good, but occasionally they are. To me the bootcamp education doesn't guarantee a CS related role. You could end up with nothing. Even my friends who STRUGGLED through a CS degree and are AWFUL programmers were able to leverage their degree into roles like Project Manager or Product Owner which have great outlooks and solid pay.
908B64B197 6y ago
I've seen a lot of Software Engineering curriculum, and the more serious ones are always CS + Engineering (so semester long projects, projects management) and there was an expectation that the student could build something at the end. Basically, what Stanford/MIT does (and a bunch of others). On the other hand, I've seen places where the "Software Engineering" is about requirement, methodologies and tools and has no math nor algorithms. That's akin to an aeronautical engineer without a solid background in classical mechanics.

by hpoe 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

deeeeplearning 6y ago

How else will you be able to pass algorithmic whiteboard interviews? Everyone knows that acing those is the only way you can possibly be a good engineer

cmrdporcupine 6y ago

Not sure why you're getting downvoted, I don't think you're wrong. Most industry work is not "computer science" work, but more software mechanics or engineering work. Having the CS background no doubt helps, but having it exclusively is a disadvantage. But it is worth pointing out that there seems to be a great diversity in the content in CS programs, and many schools do emphasize practical industry aspects more than others. Or have aggressive internship programs like U Waterloo, does etc.

petermcneeley 6y ago

Many have switched to using the title "Software Developer" to avoid this confusion. Even jobs that specify "Software Engineer" first ask for CS degrees (or equivalent) The reason for this is that they want people that know computer science (algorithms and such) but people that are not actually scientists.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago
Switched to? I guess I really am old. This is how almost all jobs were labelled before 10 or so years ago. Somehow "Software Engineer" became standard, probably under the influence of the FAANGs, in the last decade. It's worth pointing out that here in Google Canada we were recently instructed to start referring to ourselves as Software Developers again, as "Engineer" is at least partially a protected term.
- petermcneeley 6y ago
  I wish there was a better term. We are not scientist but not mechanics or engineers either. This isnt a minor question. There is an entirely new set of knowledge workers in the new economy that do not have 19th-20th century equivalents.
  - cmrdporcupine 6y ago
    "Programmer" and "Programmer analyst" were titles used frequently when I first started getting into the industry. Then "software developer." Honestly, that's mostly what we do... develop and repair software.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  > It's worth pointing out that here in Google Canada we were recently instructed to start referring to ourselves as Software Developers again, as "Engineer" is at least partially a protected term. That's a good thing.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago

zeku 6y ago

I think my degree is fantastically useful, and I'm relatively young. There is just no way I would have ever learned the things I learned in my CS degree on my own. My degree reshaped my brain. It forced me to be good at math. It forced me to think like a programmer. I failed my first 3 CS classes, but I kept going and ended up graduating top 5% in my CS graduating class. I would never have learned how to program without this degree I am absolutely convinced. Like yeah maybe I could hook some stuff up to an array in python and struggle through a for loop. The CS degree gave me confidence, expertise in solving CS related problems, and for better or worse the market expects me to have this degree and it helped me land a job where I already make 50% more than median household income in my city at only 27. I would take that student debt again in a heartbeat. Two of my friends with 4 year college degrees recently quit their jobs and went back to study CS. I told them to avoid bootcamps, why? I've been a part of the hiring process and people from bootcamps are usually not very good, but occasionally they are. To me the bootcamp education doesn't guarantee a CS related role. You could end up with nothing. Even my friends who STRUGGLED through a CS degree and are AWFUL programmers were able to leverage their degree into roles like Project Manager or Product Owner which have great outlooks and solid pay.

908B64B197 6y ago

I've seen a lot of Software Engineering curriculum, and the more serious ones are always CS + Engineering (so semester long projects, projects management) and there was an expectation that the student could build something at the end. Basically, what Stanford/MIT does (and a bunch of others). On the other hand, I've seen places where the "Software Engineering" is about requirement, methodologies and tools and has no math nor algorithms. That's akin to an aeronautical engineer without a solid background in classical mechanics.