7 ms·

> Using gender neutral in this case is as insulting as calling him a dog. In English? No it isn't. You are the one who is "butchering" a language's pronouns by

> Using gender neutral in this case is as insulting as calling him a dog. In English? No it isn't. You are the one who is "butchering" a language's pronouns by improperly mapping considerations into it from another language here, not vice versa. I have a Slavic last name, and I speak English fluently and Russian not-so-fluently-anymore. If you use "оно" to refer to me in Russian because you don't know my gender, it would sound weird to me. (I haven't been to any Russian-speaking countries in a while, but I suspect there hasn't been a shift in Russian to use that pronoun that way while I've been gone.) I personally wouldn't be insulted, but I can easily imagine how somebody might; it would carry a subtext of referring to me as an inanimate object. If you use "they" to refer to me in English because you don't know my gender, it would not sound weird to me at all. (Though it might have 5-10 years ago, for different reasons.) A much closer (but still imperfect) analogy to using "оно" to refer to me in Russian would be using "it" to refer to me in English, which would sound weird to me. Hope that helps.

heavenlyblue 6y ago
Russians use “yous” or “вы” which is both gender-neutral and a polite pronoun.
- antonfire 6y ago
  That's for the second person pronoun, which are all gender neutral in Russian, whether they are singular or plural. (Like English.) We're talking here about third person pronouns, and the "the plural is the polite version and the singular is the casual version" doesn't extend to those. You wouldn't refer refer to someone in the third person as "они" rather than "он" to be polite.
  - heavenlyblue 6y ago
    > you wouldn’t refer you wouldn’t do that because Russia is a paradise for homophobia, not because it does not make sense. “Они” is a valid pronoun for the same thing than now means “them” in woke English.
    - antonfire 6y ago
      The grammar of a language isn't about what "makes sense". A particular usage making sense or being reasonable isn't the same thing as that usage being part of a language. If non-homophobic circles of Russian-speakers actually use "они" as a gender-neutral singular third-person pronoun, that's news to me. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find out that's true. If it is, I would expect that to be a recent development, as in the last decade or so. But it sounds like you're basing what you're saying on just mapping the English usage to Russian, or basing it on ground principles about what makes sense or doesn't, which is pretty unconvincing. Are you aware of examples of "они" being used this way in the wild by native speakers? Anyway, whether it expresses politeness is a whole other can of worms, and I would be quite surprised to find out that on top of that in these circles "они" is used to express politeness in place of "он" or "она" (or I guess "оно") the way that "вы" is used to express politeness in place of "ты".

heavenlyblue 6y ago

Russians use “yous” or “вы” which is both gender-neutral and a polite pronoun.

antonfire 6y ago
That's for the second person pronoun, which are all gender neutral in Russian, whether they are singular or plural. (Like English.) We're talking here about third person pronouns, and the "the plural is the polite version and the singular is the casual version" doesn't extend to those. You wouldn't refer refer to someone in the third person as "они" rather than "он" to be polite.
- heavenlyblue 6y ago
  > you wouldn’t refer you wouldn’t do that because Russia is a paradise for homophobia, not because it does not make sense. “Они” is a valid pronoun for the same thing than now means “them” in woke English.
  - antonfire 6y ago
    The grammar of a language isn't about what "makes sense". A particular usage making sense or being reasonable isn't the same thing as that usage being part of a language. If non-homophobic circles of Russian-speakers actually use "они" as a gender-neutral singular third-person pronoun, that's news to me. I wouldn't be terribly surprised to find out that's true. If it is, I would expect that to be a recent development, as in the last decade or so. But it sounds like you're basing what you're saying on just mapping the English usage to Russian, or basing it on ground principles about what makes sense or doesn't, which is pretty unconvincing. Are you aware of examples of "они" being used this way in the wild by native speakers? Anyway, whether it expresses politeness is a whole other can of worms, and I would be quite surprised to find out that on top of that in these circles "они" is used to express politeness in place of "он" or "она" (or I guess "оно") the way that "вы" is used to express politeness in place of "ты".