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I know this is an unpopular opinion in STEM fields but a broad education in lots of different subjects is important to being a citizen in a democratic society.

I know this is an unpopular opinion in STEM fields but a broad education in lots of different subjects is important to being a citizen in a democratic society. While a degree isn't and shouldn't be necessary for everyone, the goal should be to educate people more, not strive for a society where nobody needs formal education.

pc86 6y ago
All it takes is a single 200-level Poli Sci or Econ class to see how about 40% of the comments in those threads on HN are nonsense. I'm sure the same is true for law and other humanities/social sciences as well.
hpoe 6y ago
To me this is evidence of part of the problem is that no one can agree on what higher ed should be, job prep or providing a liberal education. So we get the worst of both worlds where we force students to do both while taking out massive debt, resulting in a workforce that still has to be trained when they graduate, but much of the liberal education being ignored or useless because there is an argument over whether or not you should be preparing for a job by going to college or whether it is to make you a more holistic individual. For the record I would subscribe to the liberal education viewpoint of college but question why that can't be had for free with the resources of the internet at this point. Note: By liberal education I do not mean politically liberal but rather a term encompassing a full rounded individual akin to a renaissance man, that is familiar with and can discuss language and mathematics just as well as art history or philosophy.
- minikites 6y ago
  >For the record I would subscribe to the liberal education viewpoint of college but question why that can't be had for free with the resources of the internet at this point. How well is remote schooling working during the pandemic? Now imagine that, but with no teachers at all. Teachers are an important part of the education process.
  - hpoe 6y ago
    Honestly I feel that those that are desirous for knowledge and want to become a well-rounded and get a liberal education are the ones that are going to go out and learn and gather knowledge regardless of whether or not they went to school. Whereas those that view college as a tool of securing employment complain about the classes and feel they are a waste of time, resulting in them not getting much out of it anyway. I agree teachers are important, but does a teacher have to be someone that sits and lectures in a classroom? If I am interested in OS theory I can join the Linux mailing list, ask questions on Linux development forums, heck if I ask a good question I may even have Linus himself take a minute to respond to my question. Beyond that from my understanding many of the "teachers" at the college level are Grad students assigned to teach a class and that professors view it as a chore. Not that I am totally against teachers or traditional education, I just think that one can acquire all of the benefits of a liberal education without ever needing to set foot in a classroom in this day and age.
mssundaram 6y ago
That's a good point. I think it's slightly different for SWEs though because most (all?) who don't have a degree must be good at self education in order to be employable
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  > must be good at self education This is a common (and, I suppose, understandably so), but mistaken HN trope: that developers who went to college learned how to program from their professors whereas the non-college types are the scrappy, pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps autodidacts. In reality, I've never even heard of anybody who's completed a CS degree (or any other degree) who works as a developer who didn't also learn independently exactly the same way people who didn't get a four-year degree did. The CS curriculum seems to expect this and instead of focusing on the things that you can realistically learn on your own, focusing on the things that you're probably not going to come across on your own.
  - minikites 6y ago
    >instead of focusing on the things that you can realistically learn on your own, focusing on the things that you're probably not going to come across on your own This is an excellent point. Almost nobody has an idea of the true depth and breadth of most subjects or how to sequence that learning.
  - mssundaram 6y ago
    But I mean in terms of a degree as a heuristic for employability, a non degree candidate needs to be much better at self directed learning the stand out. I.e. there are plenty of CS grads who are terribly unqualified but will get the job because of their degree
kevingadd 6y ago
I never felt like dropping out of college was a hindrance to my ability to write software, but lacking a deep and broad education has been an obstacle in the kind of general problem-solving that needs to happen when you're a senior developer or taking on project management or design work. Thankfully a lot of the education I got before I ran out of money was general ed and electives, but it's still a regret. These days with my busy work schedule I don't have a lot of time to fit in that kind of education on my own.

pc86 6y ago

All it takes is a single 200-level Poli Sci or Econ class to see how about 40% of the comments in those threads on HN are nonsense. I'm sure the same is true for law and other humanities/social sciences as well.

hpoe 6y ago

To me this is evidence of part of the problem is that no one can agree on what higher ed should be, job prep or providing a liberal education. So we get the worst of both worlds where we force students to do both while taking out massive debt, resulting in a workforce that still has to be trained when they graduate, but much of the liberal education being ignored or useless because there is an argument over whether or not you should be preparing for a job by going to college or whether it is to make you a more holistic individual. For the record I would subscribe to the liberal education viewpoint of college but question why that can't be had for free with the resources of the internet at this point. Note: By liberal education I do not mean politically liberal but rather a term encompassing a full rounded individual akin to a renaissance man, that is familiar with and can discuss language and mathematics just as well as art history or philosophy.

minikites 6y ago
>For the record I would subscribe to the liberal education viewpoint of college but question why that can't be had for free with the resources of the internet at this point. How well is remote schooling working during the pandemic? Now imagine that, but with no teachers at all. Teachers are an important part of the education process.
- hpoe 6y ago
  Honestly I feel that those that are desirous for knowledge and want to become a well-rounded and get a liberal education are the ones that are going to go out and learn and gather knowledge regardless of whether or not they went to school. Whereas those that view college as a tool of securing employment complain about the classes and feel they are a waste of time, resulting in them not getting much out of it anyway. I agree teachers are important, but does a teacher have to be someone that sits and lectures in a classroom? If I am interested in OS theory I can join the Linux mailing list, ask questions on Linux development forums, heck if I ask a good question I may even have Linus himself take a minute to respond to my question. Beyond that from my understanding many of the "teachers" at the college level are Grad students assigned to teach a class and that professors view it as a chore. Not that I am totally against teachers or traditional education, I just think that one can acquire all of the benefits of a liberal education without ever needing to set foot in a classroom in this day and age.

mssundaram 6y ago

That's a good point. I think it's slightly different for SWEs though because most (all?) who don't have a degree must be good at self education in order to be employable

commandlinefan 6y ago
> must be good at self education This is a common (and, I suppose, understandably so), but mistaken HN trope: that developers who went to college learned how to program from their professors whereas the non-college types are the scrappy, pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps autodidacts. In reality, I've never even heard of anybody who's completed a CS degree (or any other degree) who works as a developer who didn't also learn independently exactly the same way people who didn't get a four-year degree did. The CS curriculum seems to expect this and instead of focusing on the things that you can realistically learn on your own, focusing on the things that you're probably not going to come across on your own.
- minikites 6y ago
  >instead of focusing on the things that you can realistically learn on your own, focusing on the things that you're probably not going to come across on your own This is an excellent point. Almost nobody has an idea of the true depth and breadth of most subjects or how to sequence that learning.
- mssundaram 6y ago
  But I mean in terms of a degree as a heuristic for employability, a non degree candidate needs to be much better at self directed learning the stand out. I.e. there are plenty of CS grads who are terribly unqualified but will get the job because of their degree

kevingadd 6y ago

I never felt like dropping out of college was a hindrance to my ability to write software, but lacking a deep and broad education has been an obstacle in the kind of general problem-solving that needs to happen when you're a senior developer or taking on project management or design work. Thankfully a lot of the education I got before I ran out of money was general ed and electives, but it's still a regret. These days with my busy work schedule I don't have a lot of time to fit in that kind of education on my own.