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There is a need to begin calling out Facebook and Google employees directly for their role in harming society, especially because they seem ready to rise up whe

There is a need to begin calling out Facebook and Google employees directly for their role in harming society, especially because they seem ready to rise up whenever one of their peers is mistreated. What would be your strategy for holding a mirror to these people and to make these jobs undesirable?

patrickk 6y ago
Is there a need for that? Why don’t we call out bank employees for all the fraud and deception leading up to the 2008 crash? Car makers and oil companies employees for polluting the earth? Farmers for allowing run off into rivers? Pharma employees for relentlessly jacking up prices and pill mills poising countless people? The reality is most employees have virtually zero impact on the direction of their company. The Zuckerbergs of this world will retreat to their private island estates in Hawaii till any backlash blows over.
- jdgoesmarching 6y ago
  If only employees had some way of joining their collective voices to create an actual power structure that could bargain with executives and shareholders. Probably a bad idea though, we should just keep assuming that the founders lucky enough to reach critical mass will do the right thing for the world even when they are incentivized not to.
- Barrin92 6y ago
  >Why don’t we call out bank employees for all the fraud and deception leading up to the 2008 crash? Car makers and oil companies employees for polluting the earth? a lot of people complain about those all the time. In Iceland they even put them into prison. >The reality is most employees have virtually zero impact on the direction of their company I don't think that's true. Software workers, in particular at those large companies in senior positions wield quite a lot of influence. It's right that they're not owners of the firm, but they're in short supply and they command a lot of power. That said, even your average lowly developer has a very simple choice to have more than zero impact. Don't help them build these systems.
zionic 6y ago
This won’t get positive traction here but whatever: I was in an elevator in Austin a few years ago for a conference. Older guy, mid 50’s maybe, gets on and says “oh are you a googler?” Me: “Are you? Him: “Yeah I’m in XXXX group” Me: “That’s disgusting, Google is an evil company and you should quit”. Dude was visibly shocked, and I got off the elevator and never saw him again. If more people told the employees of surveillance capitalism company’s just how terrible they are for working for them they’d have a lot harder time recruiting.
- joshspankit 6y ago
  I feel like the tide is shifting. Original Google said “Don’t be evil”, and the employees stood up for the integrity of the company when needed. Now, Alphabet as the large company did not bring over that motto, and in fact Google has now removed it. And if the things we see publicly are accurate, the employee’s faith in Google is shaken.
- vvG94KbDUtRa 6y ago
  so you were a total dick to a random person and you're writing this story like you're the hero?
- unix_fan 6y ago
  I believe that’s being rude for no actual reason.
  - ss248 6y ago
    There is a clear reason - to make them uncomfortable. Nobody forced them to work there, and it is obvious to everyone what kind of future they are building there. If you exchange your soul for a good paycheck, this is just what you get. The alternative is "Oh, you work at Schutzstaffel? That's cool!". That he has done is morally correct.
- LordDragonfang 6y ago
  Google has an absolute overabundance of people lining up to work for them. Telling the moral people that they should quit just results in a company filled with amoral people.
techlaw 6y ago
Agreed -- though likely to be a minority opinion on here unfortunately. Although I do feel for those who began at Google when they still ascribed to the Don't Be Evil mantra -- at some point you have a responsibility to look around you and recognize the work you're doing has become part of the problem.
codersarepeople 6y ago
What are you even saying? Facebook and Google engineers are just writing code, just like (presumably) you. Very few of them make any key decisions, and most of them work on good things. For every engineer working on disallowing FB signout on oculus, there are 10 writing tools for small businesses to more easliy share their pages, helping people stay in contact with loved ones. We (rightly) don't go after Northrop Grumman engineers when the US decides to bomb Yemen. Put down your pitchfork and show some compassion.
- jdgoesmarching 6y ago
  It’s always interesting when I see HN on the verge of grasping the importance of worker solidarity. Ironically by following political philosophies of “self” empowerment, tech workers have ceded all real power to their majority investors. You’re both right, but your argument is one logical jump away from “they were just doing their jobs”
- devwastaken 6y ago
  Compassion is the reverse of what you're thinking. If you make bombs in modern day you're a murderer. We have no active world war, no real threat to our borders, and any basic level of research shows those bombs are used for proxy wars over resources and land in foreign continents. If youre in a position to design bombs you're in a position to work anywhere else too. No excuses for behavior.
  - kcb 6y ago
    Rising totalitarian nation across the sea with an ever expanding military, infinite resources, and a desire to expand reach around the globe. "JuSt StoP MakinG Bombss"
    - devwastaken 6y ago
      Provide evidence that were at any risk of WW3. In the U.S. Those bombs are exclusively used for proxy wars and are made in significant abundance to continue that "war". They're not for any other purpose. If your intent is actual defense, sure, but we don't have that reason.

patrickk 6y ago

Is there a need for that? Why don’t we call out bank employees for all the fraud and deception leading up to the 2008 crash? Car makers and oil companies employees for polluting the earth? Farmers for allowing run off into rivers? Pharma employees for relentlessly jacking up prices and pill mills poising countless people? The reality is most employees have virtually zero impact on the direction of their company. The Zuckerbergs of this world will retreat to their private island estates in Hawaii till any backlash blows over.

jdgoesmarching 6y ago
If only employees had some way of joining their collective voices to create an actual power structure that could bargain with executives and shareholders. Probably a bad idea though, we should just keep assuming that the founders lucky enough to reach critical mass will do the right thing for the world even when they are incentivized not to.
Barrin92 6y ago
>Why don’t we call out bank employees for all the fraud and deception leading up to the 2008 crash? Car makers and oil companies employees for polluting the earth? a lot of people complain about those all the time. In Iceland they even put them into prison. >The reality is most employees have virtually zero impact on the direction of their company I don't think that's true. Software workers, in particular at those large companies in senior positions wield quite a lot of influence. It's right that they're not owners of the firm, but they're in short supply and they command a lot of power. That said, even your average lowly developer has a very simple choice to have more than zero impact. Don't help them build these systems.

zionic 6y ago

This won’t get positive traction here but whatever: I was in an elevator in Austin a few years ago for a conference. Older guy, mid 50’s maybe, gets on and says “oh are you a googler?” Me: “Are you? Him: “Yeah I’m in XXXX group” Me: “That’s disgusting, Google is an evil company and you should quit”. Dude was visibly shocked, and I got off the elevator and never saw him again. If more people told the employees of surveillance capitalism company’s just how terrible they are for working for them they’d have a lot harder time recruiting.

joshspankit 6y ago
I feel like the tide is shifting. Original Google said “Don’t be evil”, and the employees stood up for the integrity of the company when needed. Now, Alphabet as the large company did not bring over that motto, and in fact Google has now removed it. And if the things we see publicly are accurate, the employee’s faith in Google is shaken.
vvG94KbDUtRa 6y ago
so you were a total dick to a random person and you're writing this story like you're the hero?
unix_fan 6y ago
I believe that’s being rude for no actual reason.
- ss248 6y ago
  There is a clear reason - to make them uncomfortable. Nobody forced them to work there, and it is obvious to everyone what kind of future they are building there. If you exchange your soul for a good paycheck, this is just what you get. The alternative is "Oh, you work at Schutzstaffel? That's cool!". That he has done is morally correct.
LordDragonfang 6y ago
Google has an absolute overabundance of people lining up to work for them. Telling the moral people that they should quit just results in a company filled with amoral people.

techlaw 6y ago

Agreed -- though likely to be a minority opinion on here unfortunately. Although I do feel for those who began at Google when they still ascribed to the Don't Be Evil mantra -- at some point you have a responsibility to look around you and recognize the work you're doing has become part of the problem.

codersarepeople 6y ago

What are you even saying? Facebook and Google engineers are just writing code, just like (presumably) you. Very few of them make any key decisions, and most of them work on good things. For every engineer working on disallowing FB signout on oculus, there are 10 writing tools for small businesses to more easliy share their pages, helping people stay in contact with loved ones. We (rightly) don't go after Northrop Grumman engineers when the US decides to bomb Yemen. Put down your pitchfork and show some compassion.

jdgoesmarching 6y ago
It’s always interesting when I see HN on the verge of grasping the importance of worker solidarity. Ironically by following political philosophies of “self” empowerment, tech workers have ceded all real power to their majority investors. You’re both right, but your argument is one logical jump away from “they were just doing their jobs”
devwastaken 6y ago
Compassion is the reverse of what you're thinking. If you make bombs in modern day you're a murderer. We have no active world war, no real threat to our borders, and any basic level of research shows those bombs are used for proxy wars over resources and land in foreign continents. If youre in a position to design bombs you're in a position to work anywhere else too. No excuses for behavior.
- kcb 6y ago
  Rising totalitarian nation across the sea with an ever expanding military, infinite resources, and a desire to expand reach around the globe. "JuSt StoP MakinG Bombss"
  - devwastaken 6y ago
    Provide evidence that were at any risk of WW3. In the U.S. Those bombs are exclusively used for proxy wars and are made in significant abundance to continue that "war". They're not for any other purpose. If your intent is actual defense, sure, but we don't have that reason.