4 ms·

Not advocating for Ubuntu, but there's also "devel" "release" where you can see the current state of next release. How's Debian Testing different from that? Ed

by sm4rk0 6y ago

Not advocating for Ubuntu, but there's also "devel" "release" where you can see the current state of next release. How's Debian Testing different from that? Edit: it's "devel" not "develop"

bayindirh 6y ago
Debian Testing comes in two flavors. Rolling and non-rolling. You can either always stay in the rolling state for Desktop and non-critical application or, get to the bandwagon early and end-up with stable release eventually. To keep on rolling, you can use the keywords (stable, testing, unstable) in sources or use release names to stop rolling when something releases (buster, stretch, etc.). The nice thing about using release names is the annealing effect during development. First major version bumps stop (feature freeze). Then minor version bumps stop (RC state / full freeze). Then one day you read that Debian is released. Congrats! A last apt-get and you've arrived in stable.
- type0 6y ago
  While I like this structure, it is confusing at first and can be hard to explain to stubborn managers.
- sm4rk0 6y ago
  Isn't that the same as Ubuntu devel? You can always stay on devel, or switch to a stable release when (or preferably few days before) it's released.
  - bayindirh 6y ago
    I don't know. I started using Debian 15+ years ago and never switched to another distro :) Had to reinstall my 8 year old installation to switch to 64 bit, and never reinstalled the new one.
    - dsr_ 6y ago
      These days there's a crossgrader that can switch from 32-bit to 64-bit -- and apparently, if you're feeling lucky and know what you're doing, from amd64 to arm64, assuming you're going to take the disks and move them to a new system.
- hiq 6y ago
  You probably meant "Debian* comes in two flavors", but as you explained yourself, there are actually three: * stable (non-rolling) * testing (rolling) * unstable (rolling) What's interesting is that close to a freeze, "testing" is quite stable already, so pinning to its name (so bullseye as of now) allows you to keep this rolling state until it converges to the next stable.
  - yaantc 6y ago
    I understand he meant something different: that you can use Testing in two different ways: 1) by explicitly referring to "testing" in your apt configuration. Then it's rolling forever. 2) by referring to the current "testing", so for example "bullseye". Then you're temporarily on testing, rolling for a while until the day bullseye becomes the new stable, and then you're on stable too. I often do this a bit ahead of a new stable on my personal laptop, to check what's coming with the new stable. I guess it's probably quite common.
    - bayindirh 6y ago
      Yep. That's what I tried to say. :)
  - bayindirh 6y ago
    Debian comes in five suites actually: oldstable, stable, testing, unstable, experimental. There's oldoldstable but it's practically dead but, it's there. You can manage these suites in two different modes: rolling (suite based) or non-rolling (codename based)[1]. As you also noted, testing has a sinusoidal rolling speed. It starts rolling slowly when a stable is released. Then rolling gets faster. Then slows down (feature freeze) and stops (RC/Full freeze). Then that version becomes stable. Testing separates and whole cycle starts again. Testing never becomes unusable. Unstable has this risk. Instead testing is always tried to be kept in a semi-rc state. Any breaking bugs is a barrier for unstable to testing migration. As a result, testing can be used as a desktop system without any big drawbacks. [1]: Since unstable is always codenamed sid and experimental has no codename, they always roll. Similarly since stable is rolled from release to release, it doesn't quite roll but backports and volatile allows it to creep forward in a controlled manner.
- Qerub 6y ago
  Debian testing doesn't get timely security updates so it's inappropriate to use on production servers. Source: https://www.debian.org/security/faq#testing https://www.debian.org/security/faq#testing
  - bayindirh 6y ago
    I know. However, back then testing also was getting security fixes with 24h deadline but, since Debian got much bigger, it became unfeasible and abandoned, no biggie. I always deploy current stable to any production server and I keep my desktop systems in rolling testing.
hiq 6y ago
Ubuntu is based on Debian unstable, and if https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu#Background is still up to date, they freeze packages from Debian unstable before releasing, which looks pretty similar to Debian Testing getting packages from Unstable that have not proved too buggy. So you basically have this ordering more or less in terms of stability and how dated the packages are: From older (and more tested) to newer (and less tested): Debian Stable | Ubuntu | Ubuntu devel <-> Debian Testing | Debian Unstable Ubuntu devel <-> Debian Testing meaning that their orders depend on their respective phases, e.g. Debian Testing will soon freeze (prior to the next stable release) so in that time Ubuntu devel will probably be more up-to-date by virtue of being based on unstable. The rest of the time there's automatic migration from Unstable to Testing provided no blocking bug is discovered, so I'd expect packages in Debian Testing to be more recent. Honestly I think the main differences are the default experience, but if you know which packages you want to use, Debian and Ubuntu should be pretty similar.

by sm4rk0 6y ago

Not advocating for Ubuntu, but there's also "devel" "release" where you can see the current state of next release. How's Debian Testing different from that? Edit: it's "devel" not "develop"

bayindirh 6y ago

Debian Testing comes in two flavors. Rolling and non-rolling. You can either always stay in the rolling state for Desktop and non-critical application or, get to the bandwagon early and end-up with stable release eventually. To keep on rolling, you can use the keywords (stable, testing, unstable) in sources or use release names to stop rolling when something releases (buster, stretch, etc.). The nice thing about using release names is the annealing effect during development. First major version bumps stop (feature freeze). Then minor version bumps stop (RC state / full freeze). Then one day you read that Debian is released. Congrats! A last apt-get and you've arrived in stable.

type0 6y ago
While I like this structure, it is confusing at first and can be hard to explain to stubborn managers.
sm4rk0 6y ago
Isn't that the same as Ubuntu devel? You can always stay on devel, or switch to a stable release when (or preferably few days before) it's released.
- bayindirh 6y ago
  I don't know. I started using Debian 15+ years ago and never switched to another distro :) Had to reinstall my 8 year old installation to switch to 64 bit, and never reinstalled the new one.
  - dsr_ 6y ago
    These days there's a crossgrader that can switch from 32-bit to 64-bit -- and apparently, if you're feeling lucky and know what you're doing, from amd64 to arm64, assuming you're going to take the disks and move them to a new system.
hiq 6y ago
You probably meant "Debian* comes in two flavors", but as you explained yourself, there are actually three: * stable (non-rolling) * testing (rolling) * unstable (rolling) What's interesting is that close to a freeze, "testing" is quite stable already, so pinning to its name (so bullseye as of now) allows you to keep this rolling state until it converges to the next stable.
- yaantc 6y ago
  I understand he meant something different: that you can use Testing in two different ways: 1) by explicitly referring to "testing" in your apt configuration. Then it's rolling forever. 2) by referring to the current "testing", so for example "bullseye". Then you're temporarily on testing, rolling for a while until the day bullseye becomes the new stable, and then you're on stable too. I often do this a bit ahead of a new stable on my personal laptop, to check what's coming with the new stable. I guess it's probably quite common.
  - bayindirh 6y ago
    Yep. That's what I tried to say. :)
- bayindirh 6y ago
  Debian comes in five suites actually: oldstable, stable, testing, unstable, experimental. There's oldoldstable but it's practically dead but, it's there. You can manage these suites in two different modes: rolling (suite based) or non-rolling (codename based)[1]. As you also noted, testing has a sinusoidal rolling speed. It starts rolling slowly when a stable is released. Then rolling gets faster. Then slows down (feature freeze) and stops (RC/Full freeze). Then that version becomes stable. Testing separates and whole cycle starts again. Testing never becomes unusable. Unstable has this risk. Instead testing is always tried to be kept in a semi-rc state. Any breaking bugs is a barrier for unstable to testing migration. As a result, testing can be used as a desktop system without any big drawbacks. [1]: Since unstable is always codenamed sid and experimental has no codename, they always roll. Similarly since stable is rolled from release to release, it doesn't quite roll but backports and volatile allows it to creep forward in a controlled manner.
Qerub 6y ago
Debian testing doesn't get timely security updates so it's inappropriate to use on production servers. Source: https://www.debian.org/security/faq#testing https://www.debian.org/security/faq#testing
- bayindirh 6y ago
  I know. However, back then testing also was getting security fixes with 24h deadline but, since Debian got much bigger, it became unfeasible and abandoned, no biggie. I always deploy current stable to any production server and I keep my desktop systems in rolling testing.

hiq 6y ago

Ubuntu is based on Debian unstable, and if https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubuntu#Background is still up to date, they freeze packages from Debian unstable before releasing, which looks pretty similar to Debian Testing getting packages from Unstable that have not proved too buggy. So you basically have this ordering more or less in terms of stability and how dated the packages are: From older (and more tested) to newer (and less tested): Debian Stable | Ubuntu | Ubuntu devel <-> Debian Testing | Debian Unstable Ubuntu devel <-> Debian Testing meaning that their orders depend on their respective phases, e.g. Debian Testing will soon freeze (prior to the next stable release) so in that time Ubuntu devel will probably be more up-to-date by virtue of being based on unstable. The rest of the time there's automatic migration from Unstable to Testing provided no blocking bug is discovered, so I'd expect packages in Debian Testing to be more recent. Honestly I think the main differences are the default experience, but if you know which packages you want to use, Debian and Ubuntu should be pretty similar.