3 ms·

I don't think it was fear-mongering that led to anti-EU sentiment so much as basic economics. Since most Europeans learn at least some English in school, you ha

by tharne 6y ago

I don't think it was fear-mongering that led to anti-EU sentiment so much as basic economics. Since most Europeans learn at least some English in school, you have an asymmetry when it comes to jobs. Eastern Europeans can look for jobs in their home countries as well as in Britain. British folks, on the other hand, don't really get any more in the way of job opportunities unless they speak Romanian or Polish. So you have a situation where you have increased competition without increased opportunity.

mrtksn 6y ago
Actually, being native English speaker is always a money making skill by itself. Seriously, having a western look and speaking English are marketable skills. There are people who literally make living out of it. When it comes to Easter Europeans, they need to have the skills to get the job in first place(Polish don't get the jobs because of their Polishness), they must be able to speak some English in addition to one or two languages that they already know and they must have the capital to move to UK(Usually means years of savings). If the British are having hard time to compete with Eastern Europeans they need to look into their education system. The government as the first step in HR will help with reducing the competition but in the same time that means that UK companies will have less options in hiring which is likely to reduce the output. In my opinion, companies should be allowed to hire whoever they want and work visa or nationality is not a skill, just blunt regulatory barrier for voter distribution.
- lmm 6y ago
  A lot of it was simple cost-of-living arbitrage. A worker sending money home to a family in Poland or especially Bulgaria/Romania can undercut someone who's trying to support the same family at UK prices. On a global scale that may be "fairer", but you can understand why the UK populace would be against it.
  - mrtksn 6y ago
    Of course there's a cost of living arbitrage but that's everywhere. Many people work in London but live out of London, it's a choice you can make and it comes at a cost(travel times) that you may or may not want to take just as the Polish don't see their family for long time. In Turkey there used to be the argument against Women working, they said professional women are making man unemployed or underpaid causing social problems. It's not that different from the argument that Polish employment are causing British social problems. What about doing better job than an immigrant who can barely speak yor language? But no, they banning competition is easier.
    - lmm 6y ago
      You could make the same argument against any regulation of work. What about doing a better job than the person who's willing to work 12-hour days? What about doing a better job than the person willing to go without safety equipment? Maybe we should have laws to prevent a race to the bottom on long commutes, living away from family, or having everyone in a household work, just as we have laws to prevent a race to the bottom on working hours or safety.
      - mrtksn 6y ago
        I see your point but comparing nationality to safety equipment does not compute. >Maybe we should have laws to prevent a race to the bottom on long commutes, living away from family, or having everyone in a household work, just as we have laws to prevent a race to the bottom on working hours or safety. I agree that it creates problems and, we can have safeguards like that. The point is, the safeguards should be same for everybody if we are aiming for merit based employment. Sure, go ahead and implement ban for 12 hour work days but don't do it on nationality/race/gender base. Of course you can have exceptions for certain groups(like women who give birth to a child can have special benefits) but blanket bans for based on those is simply not O.K. if you want to have a fair society. On the other hand, you may not want to have a fair society or fair means a different thing. I understand that there are different ideologies who would advocate different structures in the benefit of a certain race/gender/social status. Racism, sexism, classism are not novel ideals.

by tharne 6y ago

mrtksn 6y ago

Actually, being native English speaker is always a money making skill by itself. Seriously, having a western look and speaking English are marketable skills. There are people who literally make living out of it. When it comes to Easter Europeans, they need to have the skills to get the job in first place(Polish don't get the jobs because of their Polishness), they must be able to speak some English in addition to one or two languages that they already know and they must have the capital to move to UK(Usually means years of savings). If the British are having hard time to compete with Eastern Europeans they need to look into their education system. The government as the first step in HR will help with reducing the competition but in the same time that means that UK companies will have less options in hiring which is likely to reduce the output. In my opinion, companies should be allowed to hire whoever they want and work visa or nationality is not a skill, just blunt regulatory barrier for voter distribution.

lmm 6y ago
A lot of it was simple cost-of-living arbitrage. A worker sending money home to a family in Poland or especially Bulgaria/Romania can undercut someone who's trying to support the same family at UK prices. On a global scale that may be "fairer", but you can understand why the UK populace would be against it.
- mrtksn 6y ago
  Of course there's a cost of living arbitrage but that's everywhere. Many people work in London but live out of London, it's a choice you can make and it comes at a cost(travel times) that you may or may not want to take just as the Polish don't see their family for long time. In Turkey there used to be the argument against Women working, they said professional women are making man unemployed or underpaid causing social problems. It's not that different from the argument that Polish employment are causing British social problems. What about doing better job than an immigrant who can barely speak yor language? But no, they banning competition is easier.
  - lmm 6y ago
    You could make the same argument against any regulation of work. What about doing a better job than the person who's willing to work 12-hour days? What about doing a better job than the person willing to go without safety equipment? Maybe we should have laws to prevent a race to the bottom on long commutes, living away from family, or having everyone in a household work, just as we have laws to prevent a race to the bottom on working hours or safety.
    - mrtksn 6y ago
      I see your point but comparing nationality to safety equipment does not compute. >Maybe we should have laws to prevent a race to the bottom on long commutes, living away from family, or having everyone in a household work, just as we have laws to prevent a race to the bottom on working hours or safety. I agree that it creates problems and, we can have safeguards like that. The point is, the safeguards should be same for everybody if we are aiming for merit based employment. Sure, go ahead and implement ban for 12 hour work days but don't do it on nationality/race/gender base. Of course you can have exceptions for certain groups(like women who give birth to a child can have special benefits) but blanket bans for based on those is simply not O.K. if you want to have a fair society. On the other hand, you may not want to have a fair society or fair means a different thing. I understand that there are different ideologies who would advocate different structures in the benefit of a certain race/gender/social status. Racism, sexism, classism are not novel ideals.