4 ms·

AWS's margin is currently 30+% which is massive. >AWS pricing is not obscure There is a massive secondary consulting market because of AWS's price obscurities

by nojito 6y ago

AWS's margin is currently 30+% which is massive. >AWS pricing is not obscure There is a massive secondary consulting market because of AWS's price obscurities.

scrollaway 6y ago
The margin is absolutely not the same across all products. > There is a massive secondary consulting market because of AWS's price obscurities. Its. Not. For. You. AWS pricing is a part of your design. With some exceptions (that you aren't talking about), they charge you more for using more resources. You are forced to design systems that use less resources if you want to optimize your bill. That consulting market is an optimization market. It's economics at its best. If you are too small to have to take these things into account regardless, AWS is not for you. You're welcome to use it, but don't be surprised if you end up having to deal with these kinds of things which simply don't exist in the world of flat-price underprovisioned droplets.
- nojito 6y ago
  >AWS pricing is a part of your design. With some exceptions (that you aren't talking about), they charge you more for using more resources. You are forced to design systems that use less resources if you want to optimize your bill. This is marketing. It's like saying you want to build a house and the quote you got ends up blowing up 100x overnight. Great example is the 100k credit for startups. You can repeat it's not for you all you want, but their business is predicated on pricing ignorance and vendor lockin.
  - scrollaway 6y ago
    The $100K credit (which I've been granted multiple times) is there because if Amazon can get you to invest serious work into their infra, they'll make up for it in the long run. It's not "lock in", it's sales. The only amazon "lock in" really is their bandwidth-out pricing, which is a sleazy tactic for sure but I'm not hesitant to call it out when it's the case. You can get the $100/$300/$1000 tier if you are in "just checking it out" solo mode. $5k and up requires either connections, partnerships, or a serious application. Anyway I don't know what your point is, I'm not even sure if you have one. They're not "marketing" their pricing, nor the fact that you are "forced to design systems that use less resources".
    - csharptwdec19 6y ago
      > Anyway I don't know what your point is, I'm not even sure if you have one. They're not "marketing" their pricing, nor the fact that you are "forced to design systems that use less resources". I think they are referring to this statement: > > AWS pricing is a part of your design. With some exceptions (that you aren't talking about), they charge you more for using more resources. You are forced to design systems that use less resources if you want to optimize your bill. It is a defense that I've heard in many AWS talks in the past. Where it turns into a 'marketing' blurb to me is my real world experience in these AWS talks in the places I work. As a real world example, we had a product that required -some- architectural work, but otherwise was solid, and could run on 3 live EC2 instances (2 web LB, 1 live backend) and 1 spare (spare backend) The Consultant that AWS partnered us with? Suggested a very overdone architectural revamp, moving everything possible into AWS Specific technologies. It's marketing in that in many of our experiences, we know there is often at least one person on a team who does -not- have the discipline and/or experience to -keep- a system using less resources as the field goes from green to brown.
      - scrollaway 6y ago
        Overengineering is easy and happens not just with AWS but with just about anything in software engineering. I'm having trouble seeing how this changes what I'm saying: That with the way AWS pricing is structured, you are supposed to take it into account when designing your product. When you reach a certain size / complexity and you have to design infrastructure, you should be making schematics, predictions on the usage peaks and troughs, how various parts of the infra will be affected, how active/idle they will be. When you are dealing with AWS, pricing becomes extremely predictable because it can be derived from those plans. And it is far better to be dealing with that kind of model than to deal with "unlimited with a million asterisks" or something. AWS is predictable, reliable, and most notoriously has never ever increased their prices, so whatever you calculated will not go up because of Amazon's decisions.
      - WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
        > Suggested a very overdone architectural revamp, moving everything possible into AWS Specific technologies. To be honest, depending on the technology, the savings could be worth it... for example, did you know you get a discount if your traffic is served over cloudfrount? even if your distribution is set to no cache any resource, you can front your APIs using cloudfront and save networking.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
klohto 6y ago
> There is a massive secondary consulting market because of AWS's price obscurities. While that's true, there is consulting market for most things that are complicated. Doesn't mean they are shady. It's simply not for you. You are welcome either to dive in or get a consultant. I promise you though, that AWS pricing isn't difficult once you understand few concepts and know your way around the Cost Explorer. With proper tagging, it's easy to drill down which resource is consuming how much. I don't believe there is a way to have a simple billing for a complicated product(s).
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Closi 6y ago
  > While that's true, there is consulting market for most things that are complicated. Doesn't mean they are shady. It does mean it's not simple though.
  - scrollaway 6y ago
    Obscure and complex are different concepts. I'm part of that "secondary consulting market" FWIW, so I'd like to think I know a thing or two about it. Does AWS have high-margin prices? In aggregate, somewhat, but this is mostly driven by the big ticket managed enterprise items: Aurora, Redshift, Quicksight, probably Fargate, etc. A lot of their more popular stuff (S3, Lambda, …) offer incredible value for very little money. EC2 is the exception I believe, because I understand it to be high margin for how popular it is. But EC2 pricing is one of their simplest ones. Could AWS simplify some of their pricing? Yes, probably. There's always room for optimization. Personally for example I'd like to see their pricing be global rather than different by region (with understandable exceptions for govcloud and china). Is AWS making its pricing complicated for nefarious purposes? No, there is no evidence to support that. AWS pricing absolutely is not simple. It's a part of the AWS stack. You need to study AWS's events/signals system to be able to write apps that make the best use of AWS's interconnected stack. You need to study their APIs / SDKs to really understand what you're able to implement. And you need to study their billing systems to understand how to implement apps that run cheaply, and be able to predict potential runaway costs. It has to be a part of the design. That's why you may want to hire consultants for it: People who understand it better than you do, and will be able to assist you in reducing your costs. It's just another kind of optimization. Maybe some software engineers don't like it because it hits them where it hurts (the wallet) when they don't do it right, rather than be able to brush it off as they usually do. It's much easier to ignore the waste produced by, say for example, the 3000 javascript dependencies shipped with the fat, unoptimized electron app they ship on their users' desktops, that do a ton of unnecessary expensive computing; when all that crap is client-side and it's the downstream user's electricity bills and CPU time that's being used.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> There is a massive secondary consulting market because of AWS’s price obscurities. There is a massive secondary consulting market because the enterprise market is addicted to secondary consulting. This secondary consulting market includes AWS pricing because it includes pretty much any IT service the target market might be interested in. A rational need for decomplexification isn’t necessary to explain the existence or coverage of enterprise secondary consulting, IT or otherwise.

by nojito 6y ago

AWS's margin is currently 30+% which is massive. >AWS pricing is not obscure There is a massive secondary consulting market because of AWS's price obscurities.

scrollaway 6y ago

The margin is absolutely not the same across all products. > There is a massive secondary consulting market because of AWS's price obscurities. Its. Not. For. You. AWS pricing is a part of your design. With some exceptions (that you aren't talking about), they charge you more for using more resources. You are forced to design systems that use less resources if you want to optimize your bill. That consulting market is an optimization market. It's economics at its best. If you are too small to have to take these things into account regardless, AWS is not for you. You're welcome to use it, but don't be surprised if you end up having to deal with these kinds of things which simply don't exist in the world of flat-price underprovisioned droplets.

nojito 6y ago
>AWS pricing is a part of your design. With some exceptions (that you aren't talking about), they charge you more for using more resources. You are forced to design systems that use less resources if you want to optimize your bill. This is marketing. It's like saying you want to build a house and the quote you got ends up blowing up 100x overnight. Great example is the 100k credit for startups. You can repeat it's not for you all you want, but their business is predicated on pricing ignorance and vendor lockin.
- scrollaway 6y ago
  The $100K credit (which I've been granted multiple times) is there because if Amazon can get you to invest serious work into their infra, they'll make up for it in the long run. It's not "lock in", it's sales. The only amazon "lock in" really is their bandwidth-out pricing, which is a sleazy tactic for sure but I'm not hesitant to call it out when it's the case. You can get the $100/$300/$1000 tier if you are in "just checking it out" solo mode. $5k and up requires either connections, partnerships, or a serious application. Anyway I don't know what your point is, I'm not even sure if you have one. They're not "marketing" their pricing, nor the fact that you are "forced to design systems that use less resources".
  - csharptwdec19 6y ago
    > Anyway I don't know what your point is, I'm not even sure if you have one. They're not "marketing" their pricing, nor the fact that you are "forced to design systems that use less resources". I think they are referring to this statement: > > AWS pricing is a part of your design. With some exceptions (that you aren't talking about), they charge you more for using more resources. You are forced to design systems that use less resources if you want to optimize your bill. It is a defense that I've heard in many AWS talks in the past. Where it turns into a 'marketing' blurb to me is my real world experience in these AWS talks in the places I work. As a real world example, we had a product that required -some- architectural work, but otherwise was solid, and could run on 3 live EC2 instances (2 web LB, 1 live backend) and 1 spare (spare backend) The Consultant that AWS partnered us with? Suggested a very overdone architectural revamp, moving everything possible into AWS Specific technologies. It's marketing in that in many of our experiences, we know there is often at least one person on a team who does -not- have the discipline and/or experience to -keep- a system using less resources as the field goes from green to brown.
    - scrollaway 6y ago
      Overengineering is easy and happens not just with AWS but with just about anything in software engineering. I'm having trouble seeing how this changes what I'm saying: That with the way AWS pricing is structured, you are supposed to take it into account when designing your product. When you reach a certain size / complexity and you have to design infrastructure, you should be making schematics, predictions on the usage peaks and troughs, how various parts of the infra will be affected, how active/idle they will be. When you are dealing with AWS, pricing becomes extremely predictable because it can be derived from those plans. And it is far better to be dealing with that kind of model than to deal with "unlimited with a million asterisks" or something. AWS is predictable, reliable, and most notoriously has never ever increased their prices, so whatever you calculated will not go up because of Amazon's decisions.
    - WrtCdEvrydy 6y ago
      > Suggested a very overdone architectural revamp, moving everything possible into AWS Specific technologies. To be honest, depending on the technology, the savings could be worth it... for example, did you know you get a discount if your traffic is served over cloudfrount? even if your distribution is set to no cache any resource, you can front your APIs using cloudfront and save networking.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

klohto 6y ago

> There is a massive secondary consulting market because of AWS's price obscurities. While that's true, there is consulting market for most things that are complicated. Doesn't mean they are shady. It's simply not for you. You are welcome either to dive in or get a consultant. I promise you though, that AWS pricing isn't difficult once you understand few concepts and know your way around the Cost Explorer. With proper tagging, it's easy to drill down which resource is consuming how much. I don't believe there is a way to have a simple billing for a complicated product(s).

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Closi 6y ago
> While that's true, there is consulting market for most things that are complicated. Doesn't mean they are shady. It does mean it's not simple though.
- scrollaway 6y ago
  Obscure and complex are different concepts. I'm part of that "secondary consulting market" FWIW, so I'd like to think I know a thing or two about it. Does AWS have high-margin prices? In aggregate, somewhat, but this is mostly driven by the big ticket managed enterprise items: Aurora, Redshift, Quicksight, probably Fargate, etc. A lot of their more popular stuff (S3, Lambda, …) offer incredible value for very little money. EC2 is the exception I believe, because I understand it to be high margin for how popular it is. But EC2 pricing is one of their simplest ones. Could AWS simplify some of their pricing? Yes, probably. There's always room for optimization. Personally for example I'd like to see their pricing be global rather than different by region (with understandable exceptions for govcloud and china). Is AWS making its pricing complicated for nefarious purposes? No, there is no evidence to support that. AWS pricing absolutely is not simple. It's a part of the AWS stack. You need to study AWS's events/signals system to be able to write apps that make the best use of AWS's interconnected stack. You need to study their APIs / SDKs to really understand what you're able to implement. And you need to study their billing systems to understand how to implement apps that run cheaply, and be able to predict potential runaway costs. It has to be a part of the design. That's why you may want to hire consultants for it: People who understand it better than you do, and will be able to assist you in reducing your costs. It's just another kind of optimization. Maybe some software engineers don't like it because it hits them where it hurts (the wallet) when they don't do it right, rather than be able to brush it off as they usually do. It's much easier to ignore the waste produced by, say for example, the 3000 javascript dependencies shipped with the fat, unoptimized electron app they ship on their users' desktops, that do a ton of unnecessary expensive computing; when all that crap is client-side and it's the downstream user's electricity bills and CPU time that's being used.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> There is a massive secondary consulting market because of AWS’s price obscurities. There is a massive secondary consulting market because the enterprise market is addicted to secondary consulting. This secondary consulting market includes AWS pricing because it includes pretty much any IT service the target market might be interested in. A rational need for decomplexification isn’t necessary to explain the existence or coverage of enterprise secondary consulting, IT or otherwise.