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So, an employee sends an ultimatum to their superiors, is denied and their resignation accepted. Media creates articles claiming the employee was fired because

So, an employee sends an ultimatum to their superiors, is denied and their resignation accepted. Media creates articles claiming the employee was fired because of their race/sex and the company is pressured to apologize for accepting their resignation. Got to love identity-politics.. EDIT: Including this line from the previous NYT article as some seem to be confused: "The company responded to her email, she said, by saying it could not meet her demands and that her resignation was accepted immediately" - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/03/technology/google-researcher-timnit-gebru.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/03/technology/google-researc...

fatbird 6y ago
Several white, male researchers at Google told stories of their own ultimatums that lead to a series of discussions with management and ultimately accommodation for them. But the black woman does the same and is fired. What's different in Gebru's case?
- ikRwS3Nb6Y 6y ago
  That would of course depend entirely on what the actual ultimatums were, the leverage and value each individual commanded within google, and to a lesser extent their history with the company. The phrasing of your comment strongly implies you think her race or gender was a factor, which I think is a very odd conclusion to jump to if you don't have detailed information about all of the above. Do you?
  - fatbird 6y ago
    I think it's a very reasonable conclusion, as do the white men who offered their stories of their own ultimatums in solidarity with her. Why would you think that it would depend entirely on the ultimatums and the circumstances of each, when we have a long history of racism and sexism, both systemic and individual; when we have a deep body of scholarship on things like unconscious bias and its effect on hiring, job decisions, promotions and punishment; when we have decades of experience successfully mitigating or eliminating the influences of sexism and racism in job actions, and seen the corresponding effects disappear? Really, we know that racism and sexism exist and have impacts even at places like Google. So when we have a case where the differences with other similar cases are the race and sex of the individual, it would be odd not to conclude that race and sex were probably strong, if not determining, factors.
    - ikRwS3Nb6Y 6y ago
      > So when we have a case where the differences with other similar cases are the race and sex of the individual, it would be odd not to conclude that race and sex were probably strong, if not determining, factors. Really? The only differences are the race and sex of the individuals? The white men you mentioned held the same job role, had the same history with the company, attempted to publish the exact same paper, were asked to retract it in the exact same way, sent the exact same angry reactionary email to a large group in their capacity as a manager, and threatened to resign if the exact same conditions were not met in the exact same way? There is simply no way this is true, and it is telling to me that you overlook all of that. We appear to be living in different realities. The "deep body of scholarship" you refer to is highly disputed, generally hard to replicate, falsify, or use predictively, and not anywhere near being the hard scientific fact you are attempting to anoint it as. I don't much care about the opinions of a couple of individuals with unknown biases and ideologies; I consider their thoughts largely irrelevant. The facts and details of their stories are not however, so if you have them I would appreciate it if you could share. Why would I think it would depend entirely on details and circumstances...? Why on earth wouldn't it!? The main systemic sexism I remember google being accused of recently was actually underpaying all their male employees [0] You seem to "know" that sexism and racism are responsible for this, but it seems to me you've started with that conclusion and worked backward. If you are correct, the details of the individual stories should support your view. So I ask again, are those details available? [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-pay-gap.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-...
      - fatbird 6y ago
        You're right, we are living in different realities.
        loopz 6y ago
        No, you're not proving anything substantial.
        thinkingemote 6y ago
- kepler1 6y ago
  Did they broadcast those ultimatums publicly all over the company and make a die-on-this-hill stink about it? In a way that forced the company's hand?
vfclists 6y ago
What is the evidence of the said "ultimatum"?
- convery 6y ago
  The previous article on this[0] includes: "The company responded to her email, she said, by saying it could not meet her demands and that her resignation was accepted immediately". [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/03/technology/google-researcher-timnit-gebru.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/03/technology/google-researc...

fatbird 6y ago

Several white, male researchers at Google told stories of their own ultimatums that lead to a series of discussions with management and ultimately accommodation for them. But the black woman does the same and is fired. What's different in Gebru's case?

ikRwS3Nb6Y 6y ago
That would of course depend entirely on what the actual ultimatums were, the leverage and value each individual commanded within google, and to a lesser extent their history with the company. The phrasing of your comment strongly implies you think her race or gender was a factor, which I think is a very odd conclusion to jump to if you don't have detailed information about all of the above. Do you?
- fatbird 6y ago
  I think it's a very reasonable conclusion, as do the white men who offered their stories of their own ultimatums in solidarity with her. Why would you think that it would depend entirely on the ultimatums and the circumstances of each, when we have a long history of racism and sexism, both systemic and individual; when we have a deep body of scholarship on things like unconscious bias and its effect on hiring, job decisions, promotions and punishment; when we have decades of experience successfully mitigating or eliminating the influences of sexism and racism in job actions, and seen the corresponding effects disappear? Really, we know that racism and sexism exist and have impacts even at places like Google. So when we have a case where the differences with other similar cases are the race and sex of the individual, it would be odd not to conclude that race and sex were probably strong, if not determining, factors.
  - ikRwS3Nb6Y 6y ago
    > So when we have a case where the differences with other similar cases are the race and sex of the individual, it would be odd not to conclude that race and sex were probably strong, if not determining, factors. Really? The only differences are the race and sex of the individuals? The white men you mentioned held the same job role, had the same history with the company, attempted to publish the exact same paper, were asked to retract it in the exact same way, sent the exact same angry reactionary email to a large group in their capacity as a manager, and threatened to resign if the exact same conditions were not met in the exact same way? There is simply no way this is true, and it is telling to me that you overlook all of that. We appear to be living in different realities. The "deep body of scholarship" you refer to is highly disputed, generally hard to replicate, falsify, or use predictively, and not anywhere near being the hard scientific fact you are attempting to anoint it as. I don't much care about the opinions of a couple of individuals with unknown biases and ideologies; I consider their thoughts largely irrelevant. The facts and details of their stories are not however, so if you have them I would appreciate it if you could share. Why would I think it would depend entirely on details and circumstances...? Why on earth wouldn't it!? The main systemic sexism I remember google being accused of recently was actually underpaying all their male employees [0] You seem to "know" that sexism and racism are responsible for this, but it seems to me you've started with that conclusion and worked backward. If you are correct, the details of the individual stories should support your view. So I ask again, are those details available? [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-pay-gap.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-...
    - fatbird 6y ago
      You're right, we are living in different realities.
      - loopz 6y ago
        No, you're not proving anything substantial.
      - thinkingemote 6y ago
kepler1 6y ago
Did they broadcast those ultimatums publicly all over the company and make a die-on-this-hill stink about it? In a way that forced the company's hand?

vfclists 6y ago

What is the evidence of the said "ultimatum"?

convery 6y ago
The previous article on this[0] includes: "The company responded to her email, she said, by saying it could not meet her demands and that her resignation was accepted immediately". [0]: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/03/technology/google-researcher-timnit-gebru.html?action=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/03/technology/google-researc...