6 ms·

Ethical vegan of ~10 years, I completely agree. To be against taking cultures for lab-grown meat, I think you'd also have to be against veterinary care, and tr

Ethical vegan of ~10 years, I completely agree. To be against taking cultures for lab-grown meat, I think you'd also have to be against veterinary care, and trap-neuter-return programs, which similarly improve animal welfare by subjecting them to a medical procedure without their consent.

chongli 6y ago
I think it’s very hard to argue against trap-neuter-return programs or even trap-foster-adopt programs without coming off as a pretty extreme radical. I’m genuinely curious in what sort of arguments one could come up with other than consent and autonomy absolutism. To my untrained eye, that level of support for animal autonomy seems like it could only be informed by an almost Disney-esque anthropomorphism. The world out there is a cruel, terrifying place. I’ve heard plenty of wild birds and rabbits scream in agony when killed by feral cats, right outside my window.
- ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
  I don't argue against it because it seems to be a necessity according to people more knowledgeable than me but I'm shocked at how easily it's hand-waved away as a non issue (morally) by most people. I find the act of castrating an animal horrific, first because of the violation of its bodily autonomy and second because genitals are not just a piece of meat but alter how the brain works which to me means it's also a violation of the mind. I think people who care about animals should think twice about having a pet if it means forcing that kind of procedure on a living being. That's my general take on the subject. To your point about anthropomorphism, I disagree, I think assessing one's health and bodily integrity is a primal instinct that is most likely shared by most animals. I can't say for sure but I have experienced a lot of body horror myself (torn & deformed limbs) and it was never higher thoughts that prevailed, even in situations without pain (like after surgery).
  - chongli 6y ago
    The trap-neuter-return programs are intended to maintain populations of stray animals. This is particularly important in the case of cats. Why? Because cats are an introduced predator with the ability to drive large numbers of bird and other small prey animal species to extinction. Since we are the ones who introduced cats in the first place, we are responsible for the consequences. Violating the bodily autonomy of individual cats is a small price to pay to avoid a population explosion that would ultimately result in the large scale killing of countless birds and other small animals.
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    "people who care about animals should think twice about having a pet if it means forcing that kind of procedure on a living being" I sympathize with your view very much, but there's also the agony that results from unconstrained breeding of cats and dogs to consider. In developed nations feral cats and dogs are often hunted down and exterminated. Even while they live their lives in are often no picnic, whether they're in a shelter or in the wild. Also, if you have, say, a cat and you don't get them neutered and you let them out what are you going to do with all the kittens? If you don't let them out, the endless confinement could be argued as a form of misery itself. Then you could argue about having pets at all, but then what about all the cats and dogs that live miserable lives in shelters or are unwanted or abused in other homes? Wouldn't they be better off with you?
  - meowface 6y ago
    >I find the act of castrating an animal horrific, first because of the violation of its bodily autonomy and second because genitals are not just a piece of meat but alter how the brain works which to me means it's also a violation of the mind. I think people who care about animals should think twice about having a pet if it means forcing that kind of procedure on a living being. There are two different situations, though: preventing reproduction and preventing potentially undesirable hormone-fueled behavior. You don't need to castrate just to prevent reproduction. I don't think there'd be anything wrong with performing a vasectomy, for example. I'm not sure if there's a similar analog for female animals, though.

chongli 6y ago

I think it’s very hard to argue against trap-neuter-return programs or even trap-foster-adopt programs without coming off as a pretty extreme radical. I’m genuinely curious in what sort of arguments one could come up with other than consent and autonomy absolutism. To my untrained eye, that level of support for animal autonomy seems like it could only be informed by an almost Disney-esque anthropomorphism. The world out there is a cruel, terrifying place. I’ve heard plenty of wild birds and rabbits scream in agony when killed by feral cats, right outside my window.

ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
I don't argue against it because it seems to be a necessity according to people more knowledgeable than me but I'm shocked at how easily it's hand-waved away as a non issue (morally) by most people. I find the act of castrating an animal horrific, first because of the violation of its bodily autonomy and second because genitals are not just a piece of meat but alter how the brain works which to me means it's also a violation of the mind. I think people who care about animals should think twice about having a pet if it means forcing that kind of procedure on a living being. That's my general take on the subject. To your point about anthropomorphism, I disagree, I think assessing one's health and bodily integrity is a primal instinct that is most likely shared by most animals. I can't say for sure but I have experienced a lot of body horror myself (torn & deformed limbs) and it was never higher thoughts that prevailed, even in situations without pain (like after surgery).
- chongli 6y ago
  The trap-neuter-return programs are intended to maintain populations of stray animals. This is particularly important in the case of cats. Why? Because cats are an introduced predator with the ability to drive large numbers of bird and other small prey animal species to extinction. Since we are the ones who introduced cats in the first place, we are responsible for the consequences. Violating the bodily autonomy of individual cats is a small price to pay to avoid a population explosion that would ultimately result in the large scale killing of countless birds and other small animals.
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  "people who care about animals should think twice about having a pet if it means forcing that kind of procedure on a living being" I sympathize with your view very much, but there's also the agony that results from unconstrained breeding of cats and dogs to consider. In developed nations feral cats and dogs are often hunted down and exterminated. Even while they live their lives in are often no picnic, whether they're in a shelter or in the wild. Also, if you have, say, a cat and you don't get them neutered and you let them out what are you going to do with all the kittens? If you don't let them out, the endless confinement could be argued as a form of misery itself. Then you could argue about having pets at all, but then what about all the cats and dogs that live miserable lives in shelters or are unwanted or abused in other homes? Wouldn't they be better off with you?
- meowface 6y ago
  >I find the act of castrating an animal horrific, first because of the violation of its bodily autonomy and second because genitals are not just a piece of meat but alter how the brain works which to me means it's also a violation of the mind. I think people who care about animals should think twice about having a pet if it means forcing that kind of procedure on a living being. There are two different situations, though: preventing reproduction and preventing potentially undesirable hormone-fueled behavior. You don't need to castrate just to prevent reproduction. I don't think there'd be anything wrong with performing a vasectomy, for example. I'm not sure if there's a similar analog for female animals, though.