4 ms·

No that effect for MDMA is not well studied and established. And it's not most people on any real study that does a psychological evaluation of people that are

No that effect for MDMA is not well studied and established. And it's not most people on any real study that does a psychological evaluation of people that are going through therapy after they take MDMA. Are you sure your sample for your conclusions on depression on the comedown is not biases by selection from a group that: - Used recreationally - Also took other drugs, like alcohol - Didn't get good sleep after using, probably sleeping through daylight Because the last two will cause depression even without MDMA use and it's well srablished by lots of studies. And of recreational use was done on a Friday or Saturday they could have been getting Sunday/Monday depression which is also well studied and normal in people with a day job... The neurotoxicity of MDA in the amounts you metabolize after taking pure MDMA is not well established. We don't know how bad it is, it may be even less neurotoxic than a glass of wine.

taurath 6y ago
To me it’s interesting that you’re disregarding all data as being completely tainted because its not done from a lab. You’re not also responding to the actual studies I posted from a lab. I’m not trying to be flippant here and I see your argument as being that until studied we “just don’t know”. Your characterization of all people using MDMA outside a therapeutic setting as singularly a party/recreational drug and irresponsibly is just rather ignorant to me. I want more studies, certainly. IMO it has huge amounts of promise for getting people to emotionally open up and reconcile with themselves in a way therapy alone can be less effective. Also to repeat myself, I did not say that people suffer from depression afterwards. Feeling “drained” is part and parcel of the experience of MDMA and supplementation absolutely reduces that negative side effect.
- pvarangot 6y ago
  I didn't characterize, I tried to ask. I understand I have a bias so help me overcome it. Can you share numbers or studies or evidence pointing at least in the direction your arguments go? What does drained mean? Of course you get tired after an hours long therapy session or a party or a social gathering while being on a stimulant. The two links you posted are studies from 30 years ago, on rats and looking at a very constrained amount of variables from a very simplified model of human brain chemistry. And I'm restraining myself to studies because I don't want to sound like a drug apologist or speak about illegal drugs so openly on an account with my name. But I'm pretty sure that if you actually talk to whoever you know that has experience administering MDMA on communities for recreational or religious or whatever purposes and ask them for their numbers on "drainage" and "depression" you will be surprised. I really doubt that you actually have too much experience, and I'm 100% sure you have less experience than some actual MAPS psychs that administer this and do tell their patients that supplements are as effective as placebo and that depression happens to less than half of the patients. It's controversial that they would do that but honestly it's were the data points. Luckily. If research evolves and we do discover that MDMA was more dangerous than we thought for mental health then that's a pity. Of we discover a diet of supplements that reduces the I'll effects that would be great, specially because the mechanisms by which it's believed MDMA causes depression are also present on many conditions so you would be striking gold here. Matter of fact is I'm completely sure both academic and urban shamanistic knowledge point in the opposite direction of what you are saying.
  - taurath 6y ago
    > I really doubt that you actually have too much experience, and I'm 100% sure you have less experience than some actual MAPS psychs that administer this and do tell their patients that supplements are as effective as placebo I’m sorry to say that you’ve ignored the evidence I’ve already put forward and your “biases” are that I’m wrong and you’re right based on your feelings. Give me a source where MAPS scientists are saying supplements are as effective as placebo - you’ve just invented that. I will give you one point - I believe that in a controlled environment that after effects of pure MDMA will not be as burdensome as someone dancing for 12 hours straight, and in fact are less about the MDMA itself and more about the other actions. I’ll still posit that neurotoxicity is a potential thing and therefore supplementation is advisable based on the studies I linked above. Given however that are continuously stuck on the idea that I’m talking about “depression” and still use that word - I don’t even think you’re reading what I’m saying. Frankly, buzz off.
    - pvarangot 6y ago
      Just call them and ask them if you are insterested. As I said multiple times there's no studies about supplements on human patients, as the numbers are already tight for studies were only MDMA is administered and setting up a week long followup trial with supplements and placebo is impossible with their current resources. I read your studies and as other three other comments here say I don't really understand how they say supplements are necessary. They are old, on very simplified models that are no longer used in modern psychiatric or neuroscience research, and about brain chemistry effects on rats and not psychological effects on humans. There are a lot of studies with MDMA on humans now, and they point in a different direction. The type of research you are pointing to is what was used as an excuse among the scientific community for making it illegal in the first place. Also I don't dispute it's neurotoxic, as most data points say it is. I'm just saying that the supplementation doesn't really help with that. Yeah they help with neurogenesis and so does meditation, eating healthy, learning a musical instrument, sleeping well, getting sunlight, etc... That doesn't mean it will "cancel out" or help with MDMA neurotoxicity particularly. You are spreading new age pseudo-religious unverified magic cures for MDMA side-effects only that it's in the form of capsules instead of lifestyle changes. That's not bad, but it's what you are doing.

taurath 6y ago

To me it’s interesting that you’re disregarding all data as being completely tainted because its not done from a lab. You’re not also responding to the actual studies I posted from a lab. I’m not trying to be flippant here and I see your argument as being that until studied we “just don’t know”. Your characterization of all people using MDMA outside a therapeutic setting as singularly a party/recreational drug and irresponsibly is just rather ignorant to me. I want more studies, certainly. IMO it has huge amounts of promise for getting people to emotionally open up and reconcile with themselves in a way therapy alone can be less effective. Also to repeat myself, I did not say that people suffer from depression afterwards. Feeling “drained” is part and parcel of the experience of MDMA and supplementation absolutely reduces that negative side effect.

pvarangot 6y ago
I didn't characterize, I tried to ask. I understand I have a bias so help me overcome it. Can you share numbers or studies or evidence pointing at least in the direction your arguments go? What does drained mean? Of course you get tired after an hours long therapy session or a party or a social gathering while being on a stimulant. The two links you posted are studies from 30 years ago, on rats and looking at a very constrained amount of variables from a very simplified model of human brain chemistry. And I'm restraining myself to studies because I don't want to sound like a drug apologist or speak about illegal drugs so openly on an account with my name. But I'm pretty sure that if you actually talk to whoever you know that has experience administering MDMA on communities for recreational or religious or whatever purposes and ask them for their numbers on "drainage" and "depression" you will be surprised. I really doubt that you actually have too much experience, and I'm 100% sure you have less experience than some actual MAPS psychs that administer this and do tell their patients that supplements are as effective as placebo and that depression happens to less than half of the patients. It's controversial that they would do that but honestly it's were the data points. Luckily. If research evolves and we do discover that MDMA was more dangerous than we thought for mental health then that's a pity. Of we discover a diet of supplements that reduces the I'll effects that would be great, specially because the mechanisms by which it's believed MDMA causes depression are also present on many conditions so you would be striking gold here. Matter of fact is I'm completely sure both academic and urban shamanistic knowledge point in the opposite direction of what you are saying.
- taurath 6y ago
  > I really doubt that you actually have too much experience, and I'm 100% sure you have less experience than some actual MAPS psychs that administer this and do tell their patients that supplements are as effective as placebo I’m sorry to say that you’ve ignored the evidence I’ve already put forward and your “biases” are that I’m wrong and you’re right based on your feelings. Give me a source where MAPS scientists are saying supplements are as effective as placebo - you’ve just invented that. I will give you one point - I believe that in a controlled environment that after effects of pure MDMA will not be as burdensome as someone dancing for 12 hours straight, and in fact are less about the MDMA itself and more about the other actions. I’ll still posit that neurotoxicity is a potential thing and therefore supplementation is advisable based on the studies I linked above. Given however that are continuously stuck on the idea that I’m talking about “depression” and still use that word - I don’t even think you’re reading what I’m saying. Frankly, buzz off.
  - pvarangot 6y ago
    Just call them and ask them if you are insterested. As I said multiple times there's no studies about supplements on human patients, as the numbers are already tight for studies were only MDMA is administered and setting up a week long followup trial with supplements and placebo is impossible with their current resources. I read your studies and as other three other comments here say I don't really understand how they say supplements are necessary. They are old, on very simplified models that are no longer used in modern psychiatric or neuroscience research, and about brain chemistry effects on rats and not psychological effects on humans. There are a lot of studies with MDMA on humans now, and they point in a different direction. The type of research you are pointing to is what was used as an excuse among the scientific community for making it illegal in the first place. Also I don't dispute it's neurotoxic, as most data points say it is. I'm just saying that the supplementation doesn't really help with that. Yeah they help with neurogenesis and so does meditation, eating healthy, learning a musical instrument, sleeping well, getting sunlight, etc... That doesn't mean it will "cancel out" or help with MDMA neurotoxicity particularly. You are spreading new age pseudo-religious unverified magic cures for MDMA side-effects only that it's in the form of capsules instead of lifestyle changes. That's not bad, but it's what you are doing.