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> The difference is that NPM as an org has a lot more to lose if they mess up everyones packages How is that important? Most Deno packages are imported from Gi

> The difference is that NPM as an org has a lot more to lose if they mess up everyones packages How is that important? Most Deno packages are imported from GitHub (or deno.land). Neither NPM nor GitHub want to lose your code. > Left pad was promptly fixed! That's an argument for a centralized package manager, not against. This is not an argument for a central package manager, but an argument for a central package repository. Deno is already a "central package manager". Similar to NPM in Node development, Deno is the default tool to download code in Deno development. Both with Node or Deno, you can download code in other ways, too. Nobody forces you to load code from URLs via import statements or NPM packages via npm install and commonjs require. (Also, when it comes to executing random code from the internet, Deno has a sandbox. Node doesn't.) And yes, well maintained package repositories are great. Whether centrally or decentrally managed repos are better is up for debate, though. In any case, if you want to use NPM packages in Deno, I'd recommend https://www.skypack.dev/ https://www.skypack.dev/. It's "NPM packages from a URL", so, as we have established earlier, it's just as much reliant on trust and potentially unstable as anything in life, but at least their left-pad is patched...

nikisweeting 6y ago
I am not proposing that Deno remove URL support, I think it's great that they allow importing from URL as an option. I just wish they also supported importing from local npm packages installed in node_modules without needing to specify a URL/full path. This would allow full inter-compatibility with the existing packaging ecosystem and allow people to continue using whatever packaging method they prefer.
- mark_and_sweep 6y ago
  > I just wish they also supported importing from local npm packages installed in node_modules without needing to specify a URL/full path. Import maps allow you to do that, see: https://deno.land/manual/linking_to_external_code/import_maps https://deno.land/manual/linking_to_external_code/import_map...
  - nikisweeting 6y ago
    Ah cool, that helps a ton. The existence of this feature as the linchpin for compatibility with npm is not clear from the rest of the Deno docs though. Perhaps it could be linked to from this page: https://deno.land/manual@v1.6.0/examples/import_export https://deno.land/manual@v1.6.0/examples/import_export. Also, it seems as though ./node_modules/ being the default could be assumed automatically though, no? "imports": { "moment": "/node_modules/moment/src/moment.js", "lodash": "/node_modules/lodash-es/lodash.js" } Considering it's the default in all other JS environments, wouldn't that save the hassle of the dev having to define this for their entire tree of JS dependencies? Then Deno would be a drop-in replacement and we could move our whole codebase over to it overnight (once the Node APIs are up to par).
    - mark_and_sweep 6y ago
      > Also, it seems as though ./node_modules/ being the default could be assumed automatically though, no? No, there is no magic node_modules directory in any other JS environment, other than Node. Deno aims to be compatible with web standards. Import and import maps are web standards, require and node_modules aren't. > Deno would be a drop-in replacement and we could move our whole codebase over to it overnight The reason that you cannot move your existing codebase to Deno tonight is essentially the poor web compat of the existing Node ecosystem.
      - nikisweeting 6y ago
        Node is the standard web environment, even frontend code is built 90% of the time using Webpack or another bundler running in a node environment and pulling from node_modules. I don't think you can blame the incumbent tool with complete market dominance for "poor compatibility"... I really like the direction of the Node compatibility layer though https://deno.land/std@0.80.0/node https://deno.land/std@0.80.0/node, I suspect it will be enough to make Deno a drop in replacement soon. Now it just needs support for normal `import` statements from node_modules instead of just `require()`.
        6y ago
- wperron 6y ago
  _If_ the node library uses explicit file imports, and ESM instead of CJS, it _is_ already possible to just do `npm install` and import from "./node_modules" -- again the problem is that Node's import resolution algorithm is horribly complex and not very explicit, but it's possible to be explicit using Node, and that would make it compatible in Deno
  - nikisweeting 6y ago
    Considering you can generate the import maps from a given npm/yarn lockfile (https://www.npmjs.com/package/@import-maps/generate/v/0.1.0 https://www.npmjs.com/package/@import-maps/generate/v/0.1.0) wouldn't it be possible for Deno to provide a command to do this and get the benefits of both backward npm/yarn compatibility and forward web compatibility with import-maps?

nikisweeting 6y ago

I am not proposing that Deno remove URL support, I think it's great that they allow importing from URL as an option. I just wish they also supported importing from local npm packages installed in node_modules without needing to specify a URL/full path. This would allow full inter-compatibility with the existing packaging ecosystem and allow people to continue using whatever packaging method they prefer.

mark_and_sweep 6y ago
> I just wish they also supported importing from local npm packages installed in node_modules without needing to specify a URL/full path. Import maps allow you to do that, see: https://deno.land/manual/linking_to_external_code/import_maps https://deno.land/manual/linking_to_external_code/import_map...
- nikisweeting 6y ago
  Ah cool, that helps a ton. The existence of this feature as the linchpin for compatibility with npm is not clear from the rest of the Deno docs though. Perhaps it could be linked to from this page: https://deno.land/manual@v1.6.0/examples/import_export https://deno.land/manual@v1.6.0/examples/import_export. Also, it seems as though ./node_modules/ being the default could be assumed automatically though, no? "imports": { "moment": "/node_modules/moment/src/moment.js", "lodash": "/node_modules/lodash-es/lodash.js" } Considering it's the default in all other JS environments, wouldn't that save the hassle of the dev having to define this for their entire tree of JS dependencies? Then Deno would be a drop-in replacement and we could move our whole codebase over to it overnight (once the Node APIs are up to par).
  - mark_and_sweep 6y ago
    > Also, it seems as though ./node_modules/ being the default could be assumed automatically though, no? No, there is no magic node_modules directory in any other JS environment, other than Node. Deno aims to be compatible with web standards. Import and import maps are web standards, require and node_modules aren't. > Deno would be a drop-in replacement and we could move our whole codebase over to it overnight The reason that you cannot move your existing codebase to Deno tonight is essentially the poor web compat of the existing Node ecosystem.
    - nikisweeting 6y ago
      Node is the standard web environment, even frontend code is built 90% of the time using Webpack or another bundler running in a node environment and pulling from node_modules. I don't think you can blame the incumbent tool with complete market dominance for "poor compatibility"... I really like the direction of the Node compatibility layer though https://deno.land/std@0.80.0/node https://deno.land/std@0.80.0/node, I suspect it will be enough to make Deno a drop in replacement soon. Now it just needs support for normal `import` statements from node_modules instead of just `require()`.
      - 6y ago
wperron 6y ago
_If_ the node library uses explicit file imports, and ESM instead of CJS, it _is_ already possible to just do `npm install` and import from "./node_modules" -- again the problem is that Node's import resolution algorithm is horribly complex and not very explicit, but it's possible to be explicit using Node, and that would make it compatible in Deno
- nikisweeting 6y ago
  Considering you can generate the import maps from a given npm/yarn lockfile (https://www.npmjs.com/package/@import-maps/generate/v/0.1.0 https://www.npmjs.com/package/@import-maps/generate/v/0.1.0) wouldn't it be possible for Deno to provide a command to do this and get the benefits of both backward npm/yarn compatibility and forward web compatibility with import-maps?