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Standing might certainly a reason why Texas can't sue Pennsylvania in this case, but you've neatly avoided addressing the underlying argument that they are maki

Standing might certainly a reason why Texas can't sue Pennsylvania in this case, but you've neatly avoided addressing the underlying argument that they are making that the election rules were not changed by the legislature in these states and those actions are unconstitutional. I'm interested in poking holes in that argument not avoiding it.

Frondo 6y ago
I'm not "avoiding" it -- it doesn't matter. What you're asking for is analogous to how to handle NTFS performance issues on a MacOS application.
- gwright 6y ago
  Setting aside standing and even setting aside any effect on this election, does it not matter for future elections that it be clear that the legislature can't be bypassed in these matters?
  - Retric 6y ago
    The legislature can clearly be bypassed by the courts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harper_v._Virginia_State_Board_of_Elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harper_v._Virginia_State_Board... So, it’s a much more specific question you’re asking. It also had zero impact on this election, but that’s largely irrelevant to the question.
    - gwright 6y ago
      I don't think that case is an example of the legislature being bypassed. That is an example of the legislature taking an unconstitutional action. The question in the Texas lawsuit doesn't challenge the actions of the legislature, it challenges the actions of the other officials.
      - Retric 6y ago
        That’s a slightly different argument, if you accept that the courts are final arbiters then clearly they get to determine what’s allowed not the legislature. It’s often argued by public officials that exceptions are allowed in extreme situations, though what those are is of course up to the courts. Perhaps best summed up as "The Constitution is not a suicide pact". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Constitution_is_not_a_suicide_pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Constitution_is_not_a_suic... Which of course isn’t a blank check to do anything for any reason, but it is considered by the court system in various cases. There are many examples of this argument being considered acceptable, and perhaps more frequent examples of it being rejected. As such simply saying the legislature was bypassed on it’s own is not considered a sufficient legal argument.
        gwright 6y ago
        > As such simply saying the legislature was bypassed on it’s own is not considered a sufficient legal argument. Well, the interesting point of law here is that the Constitution specifically delegates the authority to the legislature. So in this particular case it may indeed be as straightforward as saying that the legislature was bypassed and didn't authorize the changes. At least that is my understanding of the case so far.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        Retric 6y ago
        That’s a common thread across other instances of this legal argument and again on it’s own is considered insufficient. It all rolls back to article III section 2 The Judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution The legislature is often assumed to have a great deal of power, but it was intended to be relatively weak just like the other two branches of government.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Setting aside standing and even setting aside any effect on this election, does it not matter for future elections that it be clear that the legislature can’t be bypassed in these matters? No, it would actually be terribly disruptive if the legislature could not subject its regulation of federal elections to the judicial and executive power in the same way as other state laws (and, particularly, laws governing the administration of simultaneously and on-the-same-ballot state elections) are. The concern here was entirely feigned, hypocritical by the states involved in complaints, and substanceless and purely based on partisan advantage.
dragonwriter 6y ago
> Standing might certainly a reason why Texas can’t sue Pennsylvania in this case, It is. > but you’ve neatly avoided addressing the underlying argument that they are making that the election rules were not changed by the legislature in these states and those actions are unconstitutional. The reason why that is false is well-argued in some of the briefs for the defendant states in Texas just-failed lawsuit, but, in summary: State legislatures are constitutionally free to, as part of the rules they set for elections of Presidential electors, submit those same rules to the same judicial and executive constraints otherwise applicable to state law including those applicable to state elections, the defendant states (and most other states, including those suing) routinely do so and specifically have done so for the rules applicable in this case, and the rules for the elections were all handled according to state law (including the role that state law affords judicial and executive officers in its application).

Frondo 6y ago

I'm not "avoiding" it -- it doesn't matter. What you're asking for is analogous to how to handle NTFS performance issues on a MacOS application.

gwright 6y ago
Setting aside standing and even setting aside any effect on this election, does it not matter for future elections that it be clear that the legislature can't be bypassed in these matters?
- Retric 6y ago
  The legislature can clearly be bypassed by the courts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harper_v._Virginia_State_Board_of_Elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harper_v._Virginia_State_Board... So, it’s a much more specific question you’re asking. It also had zero impact on this election, but that’s largely irrelevant to the question.
  - gwright 6y ago
    I don't think that case is an example of the legislature being bypassed. That is an example of the legislature taking an unconstitutional action. The question in the Texas lawsuit doesn't challenge the actions of the legislature, it challenges the actions of the other officials.
    - Retric 6y ago
      That’s a slightly different argument, if you accept that the courts are final arbiters then clearly they get to determine what’s allowed not the legislature. It’s often argued by public officials that exceptions are allowed in extreme situations, though what those are is of course up to the courts. Perhaps best summed up as "The Constitution is not a suicide pact". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Constitution_is_not_a_suicide_pact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Constitution_is_not_a_suic... Which of course isn’t a blank check to do anything for any reason, but it is considered by the court system in various cases. There are many examples of this argument being considered acceptable, and perhaps more frequent examples of it being rejected. As such simply saying the legislature was bypassed on it’s own is not considered a sufficient legal argument.
      - gwright 6y ago
        > As such simply saying the legislature was bypassed on it’s own is not considered a sufficient legal argument. Well, the interesting point of law here is that the Constitution specifically delegates the authority to the legislature. So in this particular case it may indeed be as straightforward as saying that the legislature was bypassed and didn't authorize the changes. At least that is my understanding of the case so far.
        deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
        Retric 6y ago
        That’s a common thread across other instances of this legal argument and again on it’s own is considered insufficient. It all rolls back to article III section 2 The Judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution The legislature is often assumed to have a great deal of power, but it was intended to be relatively weak just like the other two branches of government.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Setting aside standing and even setting aside any effect on this election, does it not matter for future elections that it be clear that the legislature can’t be bypassed in these matters? No, it would actually be terribly disruptive if the legislature could not subject its regulation of federal elections to the judicial and executive power in the same way as other state laws (and, particularly, laws governing the administration of simultaneously and on-the-same-ballot state elections) are. The concern here was entirely feigned, hypocritical by the states involved in complaints, and substanceless and purely based on partisan advantage.

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Standing might certainly a reason why Texas can’t sue Pennsylvania in this case, It is. > but you’ve neatly avoided addressing the underlying argument that they are making that the election rules were not changed by the legislature in these states and those actions are unconstitutional. The reason why that is false is well-argued in some of the briefs for the defendant states in Texas just-failed lawsuit, but, in summary: State legislatures are constitutionally free to, as part of the rules they set for elections of Presidential electors, submit those same rules to the same judicial and executive constraints otherwise applicable to state law including those applicable to state elections, the defendant states (and most other states, including those suing) routinely do so and specifically have done so for the rules applicable in this case, and the rules for the elections were all handled according to state law (including the role that state law affords judicial and executive officers in its application).