4 ms·

Personal experience and the experience of a lot of people who have used MDMA, backed up by the studies below. I’m not saying you will become depressed. MOST peo

Personal experience and the experience of a lot of people who have used MDMA, backed up by the studies below. I’m not saying you will become depressed. MOST people feel a “fried out” feeling the next couple days unless supplementation is taken, and that effect is well studied and established. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10619665/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10619665/ Here is the basing study - and the neurotoxic effects of MDMA being metabolized to MDA in vitro are well documented: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2457659/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2457659/ Yes - these are rat models. But it’s not like we are allowed to test for toxicity in humans at these levels.

pvarangot 6y ago
No that effect for MDMA is not well studied and established. And it's not most people on any real study that does a psychological evaluation of people that are going through therapy after they take MDMA. Are you sure your sample for your conclusions on depression on the comedown is not biases by selection from a group that: - Used recreationally - Also took other drugs, like alcohol - Didn't get good sleep after using, probably sleeping through daylight Because the last two will cause depression even without MDMA use and it's well srablished by lots of studies. And of recreational use was done on a Friday or Saturday they could have been getting Sunday/Monday depression which is also well studied and normal in people with a day job... The neurotoxicity of MDA in the amounts you metabolize after taking pure MDMA is not well established. We don't know how bad it is, it may be even less neurotoxic than a glass of wine.
- taurath 6y ago
  To me it’s interesting that you’re disregarding all data as being completely tainted because its not done from a lab. You’re not also responding to the actual studies I posted from a lab. I’m not trying to be flippant here and I see your argument as being that until studied we “just don’t know”. Your characterization of all people using MDMA outside a therapeutic setting as singularly a party/recreational drug and irresponsibly is just rather ignorant to me. I want more studies, certainly. IMO it has huge amounts of promise for getting people to emotionally open up and reconcile with themselves in a way therapy alone can be less effective. Also to repeat myself, I did not say that people suffer from depression afterwards. Feeling “drained” is part and parcel of the experience of MDMA and supplementation absolutely reduces that negative side effect.
  - pvarangot 6y ago
    I didn't characterize, I tried to ask. I understand I have a bias so help me overcome it. Can you share numbers or studies or evidence pointing at least in the direction your arguments go? What does drained mean? Of course you get tired after an hours long therapy session or a party or a social gathering while being on a stimulant. The two links you posted are studies from 30 years ago, on rats and looking at a very constrained amount of variables from a very simplified model of human brain chemistry. And I'm restraining myself to studies because I don't want to sound like a drug apologist or speak about illegal drugs so openly on an account with my name. But I'm pretty sure that if you actually talk to whoever you know that has experience administering MDMA on communities for recreational or religious or whatever purposes and ask them for their numbers on "drainage" and "depression" you will be surprised. I really doubt that you actually have too much experience, and I'm 100% sure you have less experience than some actual MAPS psychs that administer this and do tell their patients that supplements are as effective as placebo and that depression happens to less than half of the patients. It's controversial that they would do that but honestly it's were the data points. Luckily. If research evolves and we do discover that MDMA was more dangerous than we thought for mental health then that's a pity. Of we discover a diet of supplements that reduces the I'll effects that would be great, specially because the mechanisms by which it's believed MDMA causes depression are also present on many conditions so you would be striking gold here. Matter of fact is I'm completely sure both academic and urban shamanistic knowledge point in the opposite direction of what you are saying.
    - taurath 6y ago
      > I really doubt that you actually have too much experience, and I'm 100% sure you have less experience than some actual MAPS psychs that administer this and do tell their patients that supplements are as effective as placebo I’m sorry to say that you’ve ignored the evidence I’ve already put forward and your “biases” are that I’m wrong and you’re right based on your feelings. Give me a source where MAPS scientists are saying supplements are as effective as placebo - you’ve just invented that. I will give you one point - I believe that in a controlled environment that after effects of pure MDMA will not be as burdensome as someone dancing for 12 hours straight, and in fact are less about the MDMA itself and more about the other actions. I’ll still posit that neurotoxicity is a potential thing and therefore supplementation is advisable based on the studies I linked above. Given however that are continuously stuck on the idea that I’m talking about “depression” and still use that word - I don’t even think you’re reading what I’m saying. Frankly, buzz off.
goatsi 6y ago
There's absolutely nothing linking neurotoxicity to the negative "comedown" feelings that many people experience, so I'm not sure why you think these studies are relevant to your initial claim.
mnky9800n 6y ago
Yeah a couple papers from 30 years ago is a great literature base. Lol.

pvarangot 6y ago

No that effect for MDMA is not well studied and established. And it's not most people on any real study that does a psychological evaluation of people that are going through therapy after they take MDMA. Are you sure your sample for your conclusions on depression on the comedown is not biases by selection from a group that: - Used recreationally - Also took other drugs, like alcohol - Didn't get good sleep after using, probably sleeping through daylight Because the last two will cause depression even without MDMA use and it's well srablished by lots of studies. And of recreational use was done on a Friday or Saturday they could have been getting Sunday/Monday depression which is also well studied and normal in people with a day job... The neurotoxicity of MDA in the amounts you metabolize after taking pure MDMA is not well established. We don't know how bad it is, it may be even less neurotoxic than a glass of wine.

taurath 6y ago
To me it’s interesting that you’re disregarding all data as being completely tainted because its not done from a lab. You’re not also responding to the actual studies I posted from a lab. I’m not trying to be flippant here and I see your argument as being that until studied we “just don’t know”. Your characterization of all people using MDMA outside a therapeutic setting as singularly a party/recreational drug and irresponsibly is just rather ignorant to me. I want more studies, certainly. IMO it has huge amounts of promise for getting people to emotionally open up and reconcile with themselves in a way therapy alone can be less effective. Also to repeat myself, I did not say that people suffer from depression afterwards. Feeling “drained” is part and parcel of the experience of MDMA and supplementation absolutely reduces that negative side effect.
- pvarangot 6y ago
  I didn't characterize, I tried to ask. I understand I have a bias so help me overcome it. Can you share numbers or studies or evidence pointing at least in the direction your arguments go? What does drained mean? Of course you get tired after an hours long therapy session or a party or a social gathering while being on a stimulant. The two links you posted are studies from 30 years ago, on rats and looking at a very constrained amount of variables from a very simplified model of human brain chemistry. And I'm restraining myself to studies because I don't want to sound like a drug apologist or speak about illegal drugs so openly on an account with my name. But I'm pretty sure that if you actually talk to whoever you know that has experience administering MDMA on communities for recreational or religious or whatever purposes and ask them for their numbers on "drainage" and "depression" you will be surprised. I really doubt that you actually have too much experience, and I'm 100% sure you have less experience than some actual MAPS psychs that administer this and do tell their patients that supplements are as effective as placebo and that depression happens to less than half of the patients. It's controversial that they would do that but honestly it's were the data points. Luckily. If research evolves and we do discover that MDMA was more dangerous than we thought for mental health then that's a pity. Of we discover a diet of supplements that reduces the I'll effects that would be great, specially because the mechanisms by which it's believed MDMA causes depression are also present on many conditions so you would be striking gold here. Matter of fact is I'm completely sure both academic and urban shamanistic knowledge point in the opposite direction of what you are saying.
  - taurath 6y ago
    > I really doubt that you actually have too much experience, and I'm 100% sure you have less experience than some actual MAPS psychs that administer this and do tell their patients that supplements are as effective as placebo I’m sorry to say that you’ve ignored the evidence I’ve already put forward and your “biases” are that I’m wrong and you’re right based on your feelings. Give me a source where MAPS scientists are saying supplements are as effective as placebo - you’ve just invented that. I will give you one point - I believe that in a controlled environment that after effects of pure MDMA will not be as burdensome as someone dancing for 12 hours straight, and in fact are less about the MDMA itself and more about the other actions. I’ll still posit that neurotoxicity is a potential thing and therefore supplementation is advisable based on the studies I linked above. Given however that are continuously stuck on the idea that I’m talking about “depression” and still use that word - I don’t even think you’re reading what I’m saying. Frankly, buzz off.

goatsi 6y ago

There's absolutely nothing linking neurotoxicity to the negative "comedown" feelings that many people experience, so I'm not sure why you think these studies are relevant to your initial claim.

mnky9800n 6y ago

Yeah a couple papers from 30 years ago is a great literature base. Lol.