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Ask HN: Liberal seeking conservative pen pal for good faith debate

20 points by czep 6y ago

Is there a venue for matching people with politically opposed views to meet, learn, share, and debate with each other in good faith? I have wanted to do this for awhile and I think now it is more important than ever. My views are for the most part what one would label as "liberal" as opposed to "conservative" in the common but highly reductive US political terms. My social media bubble is an echo chamber so I only ever see strawman arguments in opposition. I don't talk about politics with co-workers for the same reason I don't talk about sports or religion---it never ends well! I want to meet smart people with politically different views who are also interested in healthy debate. By "healthy" I mean you should both expect and extend respect for each other's right to hold our opinions. I would not be trying to "convert" anyone to my point of view. I will be open-minded enough to admit to not having all the answers. I will commit to logical, well-reasoned discussion. Argumentation can be heated, but personal attacks are off limits. I genuinely want to understand how other people think, especially those who have come to different views about topics than I have. I would prefer a 1:1 format, or perhaps a small group discussion board. Real time video would probably be best to promote honest discourse due to the human connection, but might be logistically difficult to arrange, and I also want both sides to have time to think before preparing responses. Any interest?

chaganated 6y ago
Logocentrism is a dead end. If you want to see the world as a conservative would, take up weightlifting and start your own business.
- tomcam 6y ago
  Cerno! What are you doing here?
  - chaganated 6y ago
    If this is the guy you're talking about (https://twitter.com/Cernovich https://twitter.com/Cernovich), I believe Klages and Rippetoe beat him to the punch, and exceedingly so. Will definitely check him out though!
froasty 6y ago
I'd be interested in participating in a dialogue with this goal in mind.
core-questions 6y ago
Sure, this could be fun. Let me know if you find a good place to do this.
throwaway0b1 6y ago
I would also be interested.
knaq 6y ago
I see that nobody here (currently: czep, froasty, throwaway0b1, chaganated, core-questions) has any contact info in their Hacker News profile. Usually for political stuff that means a conservative working in the Bay Area, hiding in fear, though czep claims to be liberal. Plain old phone numbers might be best for this. It could be too scary with all the hostility. Given how the tech industry is, not many conservatives will be willing to reveal themselves. Performance reviews could suddenly turn sour for no apparent reason, and lots of conservatives have family to support.
- chaganated 6y ago
  I'm my own boss in a red state, so more concerned about getting pounded by spammers and weirdos than professional repercussions. Just don't see much point to the pen pal project. Lift regularly, free yourself from the HR fatties, start a business, spend half the day filling out forms for every nickel-and-dime tax/license under the sun, and you will also want to get a helicopter license (to celebrate Pinochet's birthday in style!) I say this as a former Bernie supporter.
- throwaway0b1 6y ago
  I created this account on the idea that it would probably be more productive to have political discussion separate from (unrelated) technical discussion, and probably be beneficial on the privacy front as well. Phone numbers might work, but I personally would prefer something text-based, as I like to think through things before I say them. Again, though, I could see why some people would prefer the opposite. I'd also like that thank czep for the idea, though - I find myself in a conservative echo chamber in my personal bubble and generally liberal echo chambers online, neither of which are especially receptive to good discussion.
- core-questions 6y ago
  I don't think I have any intention of giving away any actual contact information to participate in this. We need some more anonymous forum for it. Nothing I have to say is beyond the pale, but there are people out there who would see my family destitute for daring to have counter-cultural opinions about things.
giantg2 6y ago
"Is there a venue for matching people with politically opposed views to meet, learn, share, and debate with each other in good faith?" That used to be at places like college, parties/bars, or other casual social events (dinner, lunch, coffee with extended friends groups). I would guess you can get some offers on here or forums/websites. Another thing that I do, is read others comments or articles and try to find weak points in my own arguments or new data/perspectives that change my views, or at least help me understand the views of others.
decafninja 6y ago
My dad is the conservative I can do what you describe with. (Hopefully the following doesn't go against any politics rules...) However he despises Trump/Trumpism and so sat out the 2016 election and voted against Trump in 2020. So along a similar vein to what you're looking for, I'd actually like to have a civilized, respectful, discussion with a Trump supporter (not merely just a conservative), since my dad doesn't fill that role.
- giantg2 6y ago
  I'm curious, what would the differentiating topics be between a conservative and trump supporter? It seems many non-trump supporting conservatives have similar policy stances but don't like his methods/insults/etc. Or would it just be to discuss why they tolerate those factors?
  - knaq 6y ago
    By definition, a conservative is a slow-motion progressive. Ignoring that technicality, there are 3 types of republican: 1. religious 2. business (likes outsourcing and unlimited immigration to drive down wages) 3. pro-America They often hate each other. The first two groups are usually unwilling to admit that Trump has been the best president ever.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > By definition, a conservative is a slow-motion progressive No, they aren’t. A conservative is an anti-progressive. (Classically, an anti-liberal, but that’s less clear these days, because while classical liberalism was a progressive position for its time of origin, “liberal” has been overloaded to refer to defense of the status quo elites established by the success of classical liberalism and continued progress in the direction laid out by classical liberalism, with the latter use sometimes more specifically narrowed to be “at a slower pace than is described by ‘progressivism’”.) The former sense overlaps with conservatism, the latter sense with (possibly specifically slow-motion) progressivism. > Ignoring that technicality, there are 3 types of republican: I would say more than that: 1) social conservative (often, but not always, for religious reasons; this group was basically drawn in as a side effect of targeting group #5 with the southern strategy) 2) libertarian (as a distinct faction, really drawn as strategists realized that it was easy to adapt the decentralization and States Rights rhetoric that was classic dogwhistles for group #5 along with a lot of the anti-business-regulatory rhetoric designed to give mass appeal to the interests of group #3 to appeal to this group and reinforce the Republican coalition) 3) corporate neoliberal capitalist (the oldest major faction of the Republican Party, it has been a major factor since very close to the founding of the party, and was dominant from about the time the slavery issue was settled until the 1960s Southern Strategy) 4) American nationalist (there’s actually a lot of these in both major parties; some late cold war issues, though, gave Reps an advantage here.) 5) White supremacist/nationalist (historically a strong Democratic consistuency from the founding of the Democratic-Republican Party with occasional rifts that healed because they had nowhere else to go (like the 1940s Dixiecrat split) until Johnson signed on to the Civil Rights Act and then the Republicans targeted this group heavily in the Southern Strategy (preventing that from being another temporary rift.)
poldisc 6y ago
This is a good idea. Avenues for honest political discussion are sorely missing. I'm personally more libertarian than conservative but I can defend some of the latter's viewpoints. To anyone interested, send something to politicaldiscussion at protonmail.com and I'll get a message board set up.
- throwaway0b1 6y ago
  Is this happening? (Just wondering because of discussion elsewhere in this thread.)
BnMcGn 6y ago
I'm building discussion software that aims at promoting good faith debate. It's geared towards in-depth fact checking rather than dialog, but still might be interesting to you. That aside, I should be able to represent the conservative point of view in an email exchange. Either way, drop me a line. My email is in my profile.
giantg2 6y ago
I forgot. There's always IRC. Plenty of chatrooms to get into and move to private chat.
tomcam 6y ago
Sure. Contact information in my profile.

20 points by czep 6y ago

chaganated 6y ago

Logocentrism is a dead end. If you want to see the world as a conservative would, take up weightlifting and start your own business.

tomcam 6y ago
Cerno! What are you doing here?
- chaganated 6y ago
  If this is the guy you're talking about (https://twitter.com/Cernovich https://twitter.com/Cernovich), I believe Klages and Rippetoe beat him to the punch, and exceedingly so. Will definitely check him out though!

froasty 6y ago

I'd be interested in participating in a dialogue with this goal in mind.

core-questions 6y ago

Sure, this could be fun. Let me know if you find a good place to do this.

throwaway0b1 6y ago

I would also be interested.

knaq 6y ago

I see that nobody here (currently: czep, froasty, throwaway0b1, chaganated, core-questions) has any contact info in their Hacker News profile. Usually for political stuff that means a conservative working in the Bay Area, hiding in fear, though czep claims to be liberal. Plain old phone numbers might be best for this. It could be too scary with all the hostility. Given how the tech industry is, not many conservatives will be willing to reveal themselves. Performance reviews could suddenly turn sour for no apparent reason, and lots of conservatives have family to support.

chaganated 6y ago
I'm my own boss in a red state, so more concerned about getting pounded by spammers and weirdos than professional repercussions. Just don't see much point to the pen pal project. Lift regularly, free yourself from the HR fatties, start a business, spend half the day filling out forms for every nickel-and-dime tax/license under the sun, and you will also want to get a helicopter license (to celebrate Pinochet's birthday in style!) I say this as a former Bernie supporter.
throwaway0b1 6y ago
I created this account on the idea that it would probably be more productive to have political discussion separate from (unrelated) technical discussion, and probably be beneficial on the privacy front as well. Phone numbers might work, but I personally would prefer something text-based, as I like to think through things before I say them. Again, though, I could see why some people would prefer the opposite. I'd also like that thank czep for the idea, though - I find myself in a conservative echo chamber in my personal bubble and generally liberal echo chambers online, neither of which are especially receptive to good discussion.
core-questions 6y ago
I don't think I have any intention of giving away any actual contact information to participate in this. We need some more anonymous forum for it. Nothing I have to say is beyond the pale, but there are people out there who would see my family destitute for daring to have counter-cultural opinions about things.

giantg2 6y ago

"Is there a venue for matching people with politically opposed views to meet, learn, share, and debate with each other in good faith?" That used to be at places like college, parties/bars, or other casual social events (dinner, lunch, coffee with extended friends groups). I would guess you can get some offers on here or forums/websites. Another thing that I do, is read others comments or articles and try to find weak points in my own arguments or new data/perspectives that change my views, or at least help me understand the views of others.

decafninja 6y ago

My dad is the conservative I can do what you describe with. (Hopefully the following doesn't go against any politics rules...) However he despises Trump/Trumpism and so sat out the 2016 election and voted against Trump in 2020. So along a similar vein to what you're looking for, I'd actually like to have a civilized, respectful, discussion with a Trump supporter (not merely just a conservative), since my dad doesn't fill that role.

giantg2 6y ago
I'm curious, what would the differentiating topics be between a conservative and trump supporter? It seems many non-trump supporting conservatives have similar policy stances but don't like his methods/insults/etc. Or would it just be to discuss why they tolerate those factors?
- knaq 6y ago
  By definition, a conservative is a slow-motion progressive. Ignoring that technicality, there are 3 types of republican: 1. religious 2. business (likes outsourcing and unlimited immigration to drive down wages) 3. pro-America They often hate each other. The first two groups are usually unwilling to admit that Trump has been the best president ever.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > By definition, a conservative is a slow-motion progressive No, they aren’t. A conservative is an anti-progressive. (Classically, an anti-liberal, but that’s less clear these days, because while classical liberalism was a progressive position for its time of origin, “liberal” has been overloaded to refer to defense of the status quo elites established by the success of classical liberalism and continued progress in the direction laid out by classical liberalism, with the latter use sometimes more specifically narrowed to be “at a slower pace than is described by ‘progressivism’”.) The former sense overlaps with conservatism, the latter sense with (possibly specifically slow-motion) progressivism. > Ignoring that technicality, there are 3 types of republican: I would say more than that: 1) social conservative (often, but not always, for religious reasons; this group was basically drawn in as a side effect of targeting group #5 with the southern strategy) 2) libertarian (as a distinct faction, really drawn as strategists realized that it was easy to adapt the decentralization and States Rights rhetoric that was classic dogwhistles for group #5 along with a lot of the anti-business-regulatory rhetoric designed to give mass appeal to the interests of group #3 to appeal to this group and reinforce the Republican coalition) 3) corporate neoliberal capitalist (the oldest major faction of the Republican Party, it has been a major factor since very close to the founding of the party, and was dominant from about the time the slavery issue was settled until the 1960s Southern Strategy) 4) American nationalist (there’s actually a lot of these in both major parties; some late cold war issues, though, gave Reps an advantage here.) 5) White supremacist/nationalist (historically a strong Democratic consistuency from the founding of the Democratic-Republican Party with occasional rifts that healed because they had nowhere else to go (like the 1940s Dixiecrat split) until Johnson signed on to the Civil Rights Act and then the Republicans targeted this group heavily in the Southern Strategy (preventing that from being another temporary rift.)

poldisc 6y ago

This is a good idea. Avenues for honest political discussion are sorely missing. I'm personally more libertarian than conservative but I can defend some of the latter's viewpoints. To anyone interested, send something to politicaldiscussion at protonmail.com and I'll get a message board set up.

throwaway0b1 6y ago
Is this happening? (Just wondering because of discussion elsewhere in this thread.)

BnMcGn 6y ago

I'm building discussion software that aims at promoting good faith debate. It's geared towards in-depth fact checking rather than dialog, but still might be interesting to you. That aside, I should be able to represent the conservative point of view in an email exchange. Either way, drop me a line. My email is in my profile.

giantg2 6y ago

I forgot. There's always IRC. Plenty of chatrooms to get into and move to private chat.

tomcam 6y ago

Sure. Contact information in my profile.