6 ms·

Supplements are not mandatory even on semi-legal MDMA assisted psychotherapy and in research studies. I don't know were you got that from. If they are effective

Supplements are not mandatory even on semi-legal MDMA assisted psychotherapy and in research studies. I don't know were you got that from. If they are effective or not is also a matter of debate, the specific action mechanisms are not well understood even in simple models like mice, and all the evidence in humans in anecdotal. They are only recommended and it's usually preloading and not postloading. The most common side effect on people with ASD is anxiety and difficulty concentrating, and on people with PTSD it's anxiety or depression. They happen in around 50% to 25% of the population and they also happen on people taking placebo. Here we are talking about people _with an actual serious mental condition_ that is leading to chronic social anxiety or dissociative episodes even when not under the influence of any drug. That's all data from MAPS sponsored published research studies. I'm not sure where you got the idea that supplements are mandatory to prevent a really large comedown period, but I think you might have confused yourself from reading too much anecdotal data, or you have been lied to. Data gathered from surveys on recreational users point out that depression happens only in something like 10% to 15% of the population but it's tricky to get conclusions from self reported studies.

ketamine__ 6y ago
Drug users like to see themselves as experts. It makes them feel smart. It's really that simple.
- pvarangot 6y ago
  I was also thinking that the person I replied to was getting their anecdotal data from drug user groups or communities or online "how to trip" wikis, but I understand that I'm biased. I was just calling to attention that it may be wiser to get your information from people actually gathering data in an unbiased way and from large populations. That being said, ketamine__, I do agree with your general statement about some drug users thinking their use makes them smarter or wiser, it's a common indication of addiction though. Specially among people that are highly functional among society or in disciplines like engineering or the sciences.
  - taurath 6y ago
    Please see my response above. It is based on, YES, experience from communities but also backing from scientific studies. There are NO large population scientific studies on MDMA usage. The scientific data that does exist absolutely supports supplementation. I am not a current user of MDMA, but I attribute an enormous amount of my personal growth to its occasional use in conjunction with therapy in my 20s.
    - ketamine__ 6y ago
      Try searching Pubmed for neurogenesis. It's pretty easy to find research that supports a supplement's usage.
      - pvarangot 6y ago
        OP is not saying supplements help with neurogenesis. That's pretty much a given. Saying taking supplements that help with neurogenesis to combat MDMA side-effects is a stretch. Specially because just taking supplements to get the neurogenesis effects is shaky at best. Lifestyle changes are probably more important.
taurath 6y ago
Personal experience and the experience of a lot of people who have used MDMA, backed up by the studies below. I’m not saying you will become depressed. MOST people feel a “fried out” feeling the next couple days unless supplementation is taken, and that effect is well studied and established. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10619665/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10619665/ Here is the basing study - and the neurotoxic effects of MDMA being metabolized to MDA in vitro are well documented: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2457659/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2457659/ Yes - these are rat models. But it’s not like we are allowed to test for toxicity in humans at these levels.
- pvarangot 6y ago
  No that effect for MDMA is not well studied and established. And it's not most people on any real study that does a psychological evaluation of people that are going through therapy after they take MDMA. Are you sure your sample for your conclusions on depression on the comedown is not biases by selection from a group that: - Used recreationally - Also took other drugs, like alcohol - Didn't get good sleep after using, probably sleeping through daylight Because the last two will cause depression even without MDMA use and it's well srablished by lots of studies. And of recreational use was done on a Friday or Saturday they could have been getting Sunday/Monday depression which is also well studied and normal in people with a day job... The neurotoxicity of MDA in the amounts you metabolize after taking pure MDMA is not well established. We don't know how bad it is, it may be even less neurotoxic than a glass of wine.
  - taurath 6y ago
    To me it’s interesting that you’re disregarding all data as being completely tainted because its not done from a lab. You’re not also responding to the actual studies I posted from a lab. I’m not trying to be flippant here and I see your argument as being that until studied we “just don’t know”. Your characterization of all people using MDMA outside a therapeutic setting as singularly a party/recreational drug and irresponsibly is just rather ignorant to me. I want more studies, certainly. IMO it has huge amounts of promise for getting people to emotionally open up and reconcile with themselves in a way therapy alone can be less effective. Also to repeat myself, I did not say that people suffer from depression afterwards. Feeling “drained” is part and parcel of the experience of MDMA and supplementation absolutely reduces that negative side effect.
orasis 6y ago
Yeah, we just take it early in the day so we can get a good nights sleep and everything is fine the next day.

ketamine__ 6y ago

Drug users like to see themselves as experts. It makes them feel smart. It's really that simple.

pvarangot 6y ago
I was also thinking that the person I replied to was getting their anecdotal data from drug user groups or communities or online "how to trip" wikis, but I understand that I'm biased. I was just calling to attention that it may be wiser to get your information from people actually gathering data in an unbiased way and from large populations. That being said, ketamine__, I do agree with your general statement about some drug users thinking their use makes them smarter or wiser, it's a common indication of addiction though. Specially among people that are highly functional among society or in disciplines like engineering or the sciences.
- taurath 6y ago
  Please see my response above. It is based on, YES, experience from communities but also backing from scientific studies. There are NO large population scientific studies on MDMA usage. The scientific data that does exist absolutely supports supplementation. I am not a current user of MDMA, but I attribute an enormous amount of my personal growth to its occasional use in conjunction with therapy in my 20s.
  - ketamine__ 6y ago
    Try searching Pubmed for neurogenesis. It's pretty easy to find research that supports a supplement's usage.
    - pvarangot 6y ago
      OP is not saying supplements help with neurogenesis. That's pretty much a given. Saying taking supplements that help with neurogenesis to combat MDMA side-effects is a stretch. Specially because just taking supplements to get the neurogenesis effects is shaky at best. Lifestyle changes are probably more important.

taurath 6y ago

Personal experience and the experience of a lot of people who have used MDMA, backed up by the studies below. I’m not saying you will become depressed. MOST people feel a “fried out” feeling the next couple days unless supplementation is taken, and that effect is well studied and established. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10619665/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10619665/ Here is the basing study - and the neurotoxic effects of MDMA being metabolized to MDA in vitro are well documented: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2457659/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2457659/ Yes - these are rat models. But it’s not like we are allowed to test for toxicity in humans at these levels.

pvarangot 6y ago
No that effect for MDMA is not well studied and established. And it's not most people on any real study that does a psychological evaluation of people that are going through therapy after they take MDMA. Are you sure your sample for your conclusions on depression on the comedown is not biases by selection from a group that: - Used recreationally - Also took other drugs, like alcohol - Didn't get good sleep after using, probably sleeping through daylight Because the last two will cause depression even without MDMA use and it's well srablished by lots of studies. And of recreational use was done on a Friday or Saturday they could have been getting Sunday/Monday depression which is also well studied and normal in people with a day job... The neurotoxicity of MDA in the amounts you metabolize after taking pure MDMA is not well established. We don't know how bad it is, it may be even less neurotoxic than a glass of wine.
- taurath 6y ago
  To me it’s interesting that you’re disregarding all data as being completely tainted because its not done from a lab. You’re not also responding to the actual studies I posted from a lab. I’m not trying to be flippant here and I see your argument as being that until studied we “just don’t know”. Your characterization of all people using MDMA outside a therapeutic setting as singularly a party/recreational drug and irresponsibly is just rather ignorant to me. I want more studies, certainly. IMO it has huge amounts of promise for getting people to emotionally open up and reconcile with themselves in a way therapy alone can be less effective. Also to repeat myself, I did not say that people suffer from depression afterwards. Feeling “drained” is part and parcel of the experience of MDMA and supplementation absolutely reduces that negative side effect.

orasis 6y ago

Yeah, we just take it early in the day so we can get a good nights sleep and everything is fine the next day.