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> If a company really wants you gone, they'll make it happen one way or another. Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily. Psycholog

> If a company really wants you gone, they'll make it happen one way or another. Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily. Psychologically torturing an employee isn't that good for team morale, even if the employee was underperforming. I also don't think it's as culturally prevalent as you imply.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily. Where outside of the US/UK does that happen? Never heard in Europe that you get paid more so you leave when they can boot you out for free and I talked to lawyers about this. The reasoning behind the generous safety nets in Europe is also to make it easier for employee-employer terminations in case it doesn't work out. The laws here are that employers aren't allowed to abuse you, force you into unpaid overtime, etc. but fire you for free they can otherwise nobody would dare become an entrepreneur/investor in an environment where it's impossible to fire someone.
- joelbluminator 6y ago
  I live in the Netherlands. After 3 years (used to be 2 years up until very recently) a worker has to be moved to a permanent contract. That makes firing a person very difficult. > when they can boot you out for free You can't really. It's extremely difficult and no lawyer can magically change the fact that the culture and the courts are in favor of the worker, not the employer. Now the laws might change a bit, making the terms of termination a bit easier for the employer in the future (we'll see what the next government brings), but in general I expect it to still be quite difficult. So it may be easier to pay the employee 30K extra compensation to let him go then trying a game of psychological torture. And if that sounds unreal to you, know that in the Netherlands employees can get paid up to 2 years if they have a nervous breakdown. And nervous breakdown is quite common culturally. So employees have dirty tricks of their own if the employer wants to play dirty. Now of course, there are obvious disadvantages to this approach, not necessarily for the employer actually. The employer can protect himself by simply not hiring anyone for more than a couple of years, making "flex work" a real problem in NL. But yes, firing could be hard and I'd be surprised if it's much different in Germany/France etc.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    >the fact that the culture and the courts are in favor of the worker As much as I like being on the side of the little guy, in any civilized society, the courts should be impartial and not favor the employer nor the employee and pass verdicts based on the law and not based on the culture and if the law says you can fire someone who continuously underperforms over a period of time then that law will be applied. >After 3 years [...] a worker has to be moved to a permanent contract. That sounds pretty poor IMHO. In most of the EU you're permanent after passing the first year of employment. I've never worked more than 3 years in a place so far, so in the NL I would have never reached permanent status, continuously being at the risk of on the spot termination. I dunno man, sounds pretty bad for me IMHO. >And nervous breakdown is quite common culturally. That actually sounds legit bad IMHO if mental issues are the becoming the norm in employment relationships. >The employer can protect himself by simply not hiring anyone for more than a couple of years, making "flex work" a real problem in NL I used to work for a top NL based company and this situation was often discussed around the office that NL companies are abusing expat workers from poorer countries by promising them riches in exchange for hard work and sacrifice and instead using them for 2-3 years then rotating them with new workers until they get fed up with this and move back to their home countries. Rinse and repeat. Sounds really good for Dutch business though.
    - joelbluminator 6y ago
      > Except that in any civilized society Gonna ignore that one. > I used to work for a top NL based company and this situation was often discussed around the office that NL companies are abusing expat workers promising them riches and instead using them for 2-3 years then rotating them with new workers until they get fed up with this and move back to their home countries I really haven't experienced this at all. Tons of expats I know are on permanent contract (btw - many employers offer a permanent contract after 1-1.5 years if they're happy with the emplyoee, at least that's what I see in tech). Of course people in the hotel/entertainment business may have a different experience. I bet flex work is more common there. > That actually sounds legit bad IMHO if mental issues are the becoming the norm in employment relationships. I didn't say mental issues are the norm in the Netherlands, lol. Far from it, it's one of the happiest countries in the world according to research. I'm just saying - the law enables you to take a LONG paid leave if you have burnout. Now some employees actually get burned out, and some are probably abusing it a bit. When you're protecting employees there'll always be people who dishonestly try to take advantage.
- rakhodorkovsky 6y ago
  In Germany it's common for larger, well performing companies to retire older, less productive employees by way of 'Abfindungsprogramm' - programs that offer these employees generous monetary compensation (up to ~2-5 annual salary) in exchange for them retiring early. I know of four people who took such an offer.
  - Glawen 6y ago
    And I never understood why a company would do that
    - joelbluminator 6y ago
      I believe it's cost effective, firing these people is usually very hard legally.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

>Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily. Where outside of the US/UK does that happen? Never heard in Europe that you get paid more so you leave when they can boot you out for free and I talked to lawyers about this. The reasoning behind the generous safety nets in Europe is also to make it easier for employee-employer terminations in case it doesn't work out. The laws here are that employers aren't allowed to abuse you, force you into unpaid overtime, etc. but fire you for free they can otherwise nobody would dare become an entrepreneur/investor in an environment where it's impossible to fire someone.

joelbluminator 6y ago
I live in the Netherlands. After 3 years (used to be 2 years up until very recently) a worker has to be moved to a permanent contract. That makes firing a person very difficult. > when they can boot you out for free You can't really. It's extremely difficult and no lawyer can magically change the fact that the culture and the courts are in favor of the worker, not the employer. Now the laws might change a bit, making the terms of termination a bit easier for the employer in the future (we'll see what the next government brings), but in general I expect it to still be quite difficult. So it may be easier to pay the employee 30K extra compensation to let him go then trying a game of psychological torture. And if that sounds unreal to you, know that in the Netherlands employees can get paid up to 2 years if they have a nervous breakdown. And nervous breakdown is quite common culturally. So employees have dirty tricks of their own if the employer wants to play dirty. Now of course, there are obvious disadvantages to this approach, not necessarily for the employer actually. The employer can protect himself by simply not hiring anyone for more than a couple of years, making "flex work" a real problem in NL. But yes, firing could be hard and I'd be surprised if it's much different in Germany/France etc.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  >the fact that the culture and the courts are in favor of the worker As much as I like being on the side of the little guy, in any civilized society, the courts should be impartial and not favor the employer nor the employee and pass verdicts based on the law and not based on the culture and if the law says you can fire someone who continuously underperforms over a period of time then that law will be applied. >After 3 years [...] a worker has to be moved to a permanent contract. That sounds pretty poor IMHO. In most of the EU you're permanent after passing the first year of employment. I've never worked more than 3 years in a place so far, so in the NL I would have never reached permanent status, continuously being at the risk of on the spot termination. I dunno man, sounds pretty bad for me IMHO. >And nervous breakdown is quite common culturally. That actually sounds legit bad IMHO if mental issues are the becoming the norm in employment relationships. >The employer can protect himself by simply not hiring anyone for more than a couple of years, making "flex work" a real problem in NL I used to work for a top NL based company and this situation was often discussed around the office that NL companies are abusing expat workers from poorer countries by promising them riches in exchange for hard work and sacrifice and instead using them for 2-3 years then rotating them with new workers until they get fed up with this and move back to their home countries. Rinse and repeat. Sounds really good for Dutch business though.
  - joelbluminator 6y ago
    > Except that in any civilized society Gonna ignore that one. > I used to work for a top NL based company and this situation was often discussed around the office that NL companies are abusing expat workers promising them riches and instead using them for 2-3 years then rotating them with new workers until they get fed up with this and move back to their home countries I really haven't experienced this at all. Tons of expats I know are on permanent contract (btw - many employers offer a permanent contract after 1-1.5 years if they're happy with the emplyoee, at least that's what I see in tech). Of course people in the hotel/entertainment business may have a different experience. I bet flex work is more common there. > That actually sounds legit bad IMHO if mental issues are the becoming the norm in employment relationships. I didn't say mental issues are the norm in the Netherlands, lol. Far from it, it's one of the happiest countries in the world according to research. I'm just saying - the law enables you to take a LONG paid leave if you have burnout. Now some employees actually get burned out, and some are probably abusing it a bit. When you're protecting employees there'll always be people who dishonestly try to take advantage.
rakhodorkovsky 6y ago
In Germany it's common for larger, well performing companies to retire older, less productive employees by way of 'Abfindungsprogramm' - programs that offer these employees generous monetary compensation (up to ~2-5 annual salary) in exchange for them retiring early. I know of four people who took such an offer.
- Glawen 6y ago
  And I never understood why a company would do that
  - joelbluminator 6y ago
    I believe it's cost effective, firing these people is usually very hard legally.