8 ms·

My family went through some pretty tumultuous times that created a giant rift where there was no communication from my early adolescence into early adulthood wi

by werber 6y ago

My family went through some pretty tumultuous times that created a giant rift where there was no communication from my early adolescence into early adulthood with one side of my family and one night of taking mdma with my closest cousin from childhood was able to facilitate a remediation. However when I’ve taken it recreationally without a goal in mind it has been such a painful experience in the following days, which isn’t every users experience, but for myself without meaningful emotional resolve the drug left me feeling incredibly depressed. With that being said, I hope anyone who wants to experiment with it invests in a safety kit ( https://dancesafe.org/product/mdma-testing-kit/ https://dancesafe.org/product/mdma-testing-kit/ ), no matter your intention

taurath 6y ago
Also supplements are mandatory to prevent a really large comedown period - the most important being alpha-liproic acid, to avoid neurotoxicity.
- loves_mangoes 6y ago
  I'm glad to learn about alpha-liproic acid, and on the same theme the beta (and alpha1) blocker Carvedilol taken 1h before has been found [0] to reduce hyperthermia and other cardiotoxic effects of MDMA without "affecting the subjective effects". This is your threadly reminder to practice harm reduction if you plan to take neuro- and cardiotoxic drugs like MDMA =) [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22404145/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22404145/
  - bennysonething 6y ago
    Genuine question, is mdma cardio toxic? Thought that was cocaine?
    - pvarangot 6y ago
      It's not clear it's cardiotoxic even on heavy users. Most research points out that it is, but the mechanism is not well understood so it may be a correlation as most heavy users will not be leading a healthy vascular life.
      - meowface 6y ago
        Importantly, it may be neurotoxic for heavy users, though. It's actually probably by far the most neurotoxic drug that's commonly used recreationally. (Believed to be due in part to the acute serotonin release, and reactive oxygen species, and risk of overheating.) This is not at all to scaremonger - just to encourage people to always research things very carefully before they consume them. https://rollsafe.org/how-to-take-mdma/ https://rollsafe.org/how-to-take-mdma/ is an excellent resource. I've used it, had a great time, not much comedown, and would probably use it again, but I was cautious to follow all of the advice on https://rollsafe.org/how-to-take-mdma/ https://rollsafe.org/how-to-take-mdma/ If you're popping moderate or large doses every few days as if it were Adderall, you're potentially risking the chance of long-term or permanent brain damage.
    - therealx 6y ago
      Many drugs are, but youre (I think), thinking of the study where they accidently used meth instead of MDMA.
  - cwkoss 6y ago
    Note that it is spelled alpha-lipoic acid - no 'r'
- uoaei 6y ago
  5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin and taking it for about a week before your experience allows your body to synthesize more to replace all the serotonin that gets used during the experience. For more information look into "pre-loading" for MDMA experiences.
  - pvarangot 6y ago
    5-HTP will do nothing to your serotonin levels if you are healthy. That's mostly anecdotal evidence from communities that are usually looking into using it with more frequency that what most experts agree that you should be using it. It is recommended as post-loading by psychiatrists but also based on their anecdotal experience with patients.
    - taurath 6y ago
      Agree with this. It also must be taken at least 24 hours afterwards in order to ensure that you've finished metabolizing the MDMA or else the newly available serotonin will make the drugs effect more continuous.
  - com2kid 6y ago
    > 5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin and taking it for about a week before your experience allows your body to synthesize more Prolonged use of 5-HTP will also cause heart problems, same reason fen-phen does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenfluramine/phentermine#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenfluramine/phentermine#Adver... I don't know of any studies of exactly how much is needed to cause problems, before taking 5-htp one might want to look into that! I am always rather concerned that 5-htp is available OTC, and is even added to energy drinks, when it is known to have such harmful effects.
  - PragmaticPulp 6y ago
    > 5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin and taking it for about a week before your experience allows your body to synthesize more to replace all the serotonin that gets used during the experience This is not true at all. Serotonin turnover in the brain is measured in hours, not days or weeks (Reference: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054358908602987 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10543... ) 5-HTP also has a half-life of around 4 hours, so you're not going to have any 5-HTP or Serotonin build-up. The rebound from drugs like MDMA isn't simply about "using up" your serotonin. When you take a drug and induce a huge spike of activity, the brain's negative feedback loops are put into overdrive in an attempt to steer things back to normal. When the drug leaves your system, it takes some time for these feedback loops to move back toward a more normal state. It's basically "paying back" the highs with some rebound lows. It's possible that taking 5-HTP in the days after the drug could maybe counteract some of the lows, but it's not a magic bullet.
- pvarangot 6y ago
  Supplements are not mandatory even on semi-legal MDMA assisted psychotherapy and in research studies. I don't know were you got that from. If they are effective or not is also a matter of debate, the specific action mechanisms are not well understood even in simple models like mice, and all the evidence in humans in anecdotal. They are only recommended and it's usually preloading and not postloading. The most common side effect on people with ASD is anxiety and difficulty concentrating, and on people with PTSD it's anxiety or depression. They happen in around 50% to 25% of the population and they also happen on people taking placebo. Here we are talking about people _with an actual serious mental condition_ that is leading to chronic social anxiety or dissociative episodes even when not under the influence of any drug. That's all data from MAPS sponsored published research studies. I'm not sure where you got the idea that supplements are mandatory to prevent a really large comedown period, but I think you might have confused yourself from reading too much anecdotal data, or you have been lied to. Data gathered from surveys on recreational users point out that depression happens only in something like 10% to 15% of the population but it's tricky to get conclusions from self reported studies.
  - ketamine__ 6y ago
    Drug users like to see themselves as experts. It makes them feel smart. It's really that simple.
    - pvarangot 6y ago
      I was also thinking that the person I replied to was getting their anecdotal data from drug user groups or communities or online "how to trip" wikis, but I understand that I'm biased. I was just calling to attention that it may be wiser to get your information from people actually gathering data in an unbiased way and from large populations. That being said, ketamine__, I do agree with your general statement about some drug users thinking their use makes them smarter or wiser, it's a common indication of addiction though. Specially among people that are highly functional among society or in disciplines like engineering or the sciences.
      - 6y ago
- com2kid 6y ago
  Fun fact, assuming you meant lipoic not liproic, large doses of R-ALA will put someone into a ketogenic state. From what I understand, ALA is rather unstable and degrades quickly, so for accurate dosing using stablized r-ala. Anyway, about 1000mg and you'll be in ketosis a couple hours later!
  - taurath 6y ago
    Yes, and large doses are not recommended. 150mg every few hours while under effect of MDMA. https://rollsafe.org/mdma-supplements/#alpha-lipoic-acid-ala https://rollsafe.org/mdma-supplements/#alpha-lipoic-acid-ala Yes, the above is a "community" site but there are not better sources as it has schedule-1 and not extensively studied. The sources for studies they use are the same that therapists working in MDMA therapy use to create their treatment plans. The entire point is harm reduction here.
    - com2kid 6y ago
      That site links to examine.com which is a very reliable source of information. The annoyance of many of studies about ALA is that they use ALA, not R-ALA, and since ALA is so unstable, I'd have to go through each study one by one to see what they did to account for that. Ugh. All that said, I'm guessing no one is trying to sell R-ALA for Keto since R-ALA seems to be rather expensive and most of the fake keto supplements are super low cost supplements with jacked up prices applied.
heavyset_go 6y ago
Yeah, MDMA is a heavy 5HT releaser, which is the cause of post-MDMA depression after as little as one dose. I wish other relatives to MDMA were investigated, too, like bk-MDMA. It results in less 5HT release, has the same effects as MDMA, but doesn't have a come down with depression as a symptom unless abused.
- therealx 6y ago
  Interesting. By abused, do you mean prolonged use over many days or large one time dosage or both? If the one time use definition, can you reach a threshold dose for what one considers an mdma experiance and still avoid the bulk of depression?
  - therealx 6y ago
    I just checked erowid and it seems to be a very different experiance. Still seems interesting!
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    > By abused, do you mean prolonged use over many days or large one time dosage or both? What I mean by abuse is use over multiple days.

by werber 6y ago

taurath 6y ago

Also supplements are mandatory to prevent a really large comedown period - the most important being alpha-liproic acid, to avoid neurotoxicity.

loves_mangoes 6y ago
I'm glad to learn about alpha-liproic acid, and on the same theme the beta (and alpha1) blocker Carvedilol taken 1h before has been found [0] to reduce hyperthermia and other cardiotoxic effects of MDMA without "affecting the subjective effects". This is your threadly reminder to practice harm reduction if you plan to take neuro- and cardiotoxic drugs like MDMA =) [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22404145/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22404145/
- bennysonething 6y ago
  Genuine question, is mdma cardio toxic? Thought that was cocaine?
  - pvarangot 6y ago
    It's not clear it's cardiotoxic even on heavy users. Most research points out that it is, but the mechanism is not well understood so it may be a correlation as most heavy users will not be leading a healthy vascular life.
    - meowface 6y ago
      Importantly, it may be neurotoxic for heavy users, though. It's actually probably by far the most neurotoxic drug that's commonly used recreationally. (Believed to be due in part to the acute serotonin release, and reactive oxygen species, and risk of overheating.) This is not at all to scaremonger - just to encourage people to always research things very carefully before they consume them. https://rollsafe.org/how-to-take-mdma/ https://rollsafe.org/how-to-take-mdma/ is an excellent resource. I've used it, had a great time, not much comedown, and would probably use it again, but I was cautious to follow all of the advice on https://rollsafe.org/how-to-take-mdma/ https://rollsafe.org/how-to-take-mdma/ If you're popping moderate or large doses every few days as if it were Adderall, you're potentially risking the chance of long-term or permanent brain damage.
  - therealx 6y ago
    Many drugs are, but youre (I think), thinking of the study where they accidently used meth instead of MDMA.
- cwkoss 6y ago
  Note that it is spelled alpha-lipoic acid - no 'r'
uoaei 6y ago
5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin and taking it for about a week before your experience allows your body to synthesize more to replace all the serotonin that gets used during the experience. For more information look into "pre-loading" for MDMA experiences.
- pvarangot 6y ago
  5-HTP will do nothing to your serotonin levels if you are healthy. That's mostly anecdotal evidence from communities that are usually looking into using it with more frequency that what most experts agree that you should be using it. It is recommended as post-loading by psychiatrists but also based on their anecdotal experience with patients.
  - taurath 6y ago
    Agree with this. It also must be taken at least 24 hours afterwards in order to ensure that you've finished metabolizing the MDMA or else the newly available serotonin will make the drugs effect more continuous.
- com2kid 6y ago
  > 5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin and taking it for about a week before your experience allows your body to synthesize more Prolonged use of 5-HTP will also cause heart problems, same reason fen-phen does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenfluramine/phentermine#Adverse_effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fenfluramine/phentermine#Adver... I don't know of any studies of exactly how much is needed to cause problems, before taking 5-htp one might want to look into that! I am always rather concerned that 5-htp is available OTC, and is even added to energy drinks, when it is known to have such harmful effects.
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  > 5-HTP is a precursor to serotonin and taking it for about a week before your experience allows your body to synthesize more to replace all the serotonin that gets used during the experience This is not true at all. Serotonin turnover in the brain is measured in hours, not days or weeks (Reference: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1054358908602987 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10543... ) 5-HTP also has a half-life of around 4 hours, so you're not going to have any 5-HTP or Serotonin build-up. The rebound from drugs like MDMA isn't simply about "using up" your serotonin. When you take a drug and induce a huge spike of activity, the brain's negative feedback loops are put into overdrive in an attempt to steer things back to normal. When the drug leaves your system, it takes some time for these feedback loops to move back toward a more normal state. It's basically "paying back" the highs with some rebound lows. It's possible that taking 5-HTP in the days after the drug could maybe counteract some of the lows, but it's not a magic bullet.
pvarangot 6y ago
Supplements are not mandatory even on semi-legal MDMA assisted psychotherapy and in research studies. I don't know were you got that from. If they are effective or not is also a matter of debate, the specific action mechanisms are not well understood even in simple models like mice, and all the evidence in humans in anecdotal. They are only recommended and it's usually preloading and not postloading. The most common side effect on people with ASD is anxiety and difficulty concentrating, and on people with PTSD it's anxiety or depression. They happen in around 50% to 25% of the population and they also happen on people taking placebo. Here we are talking about people _with an actual serious mental condition_ that is leading to chronic social anxiety or dissociative episodes even when not under the influence of any drug. That's all data from MAPS sponsored published research studies. I'm not sure where you got the idea that supplements are mandatory to prevent a really large comedown period, but I think you might have confused yourself from reading too much anecdotal data, or you have been lied to. Data gathered from surveys on recreational users point out that depression happens only in something like 10% to 15% of the population but it's tricky to get conclusions from self reported studies.
- ketamine__ 6y ago
  Drug users like to see themselves as experts. It makes them feel smart. It's really that simple.
  - pvarangot 6y ago
    I was also thinking that the person I replied to was getting their anecdotal data from drug user groups or communities or online "how to trip" wikis, but I understand that I'm biased. I was just calling to attention that it may be wiser to get your information from people actually gathering data in an unbiased way and from large populations. That being said, ketamine__, I do agree with your general statement about some drug users thinking their use makes them smarter or wiser, it's a common indication of addiction though. Specially among people that are highly functional among society or in disciplines like engineering or the sciences.
    - 6y ago
com2kid 6y ago
Fun fact, assuming you meant lipoic not liproic, large doses of R-ALA will put someone into a ketogenic state. From what I understand, ALA is rather unstable and degrades quickly, so for accurate dosing using stablized r-ala. Anyway, about 1000mg and you'll be in ketosis a couple hours later!
- taurath 6y ago
  Yes, and large doses are not recommended. 150mg every few hours while under effect of MDMA. https://rollsafe.org/mdma-supplements/#alpha-lipoic-acid-ala https://rollsafe.org/mdma-supplements/#alpha-lipoic-acid-ala Yes, the above is a "community" site but there are not better sources as it has schedule-1 and not extensively studied. The sources for studies they use are the same that therapists working in MDMA therapy use to create their treatment plans. The entire point is harm reduction here.
  - com2kid 6y ago
    That site links to examine.com which is a very reliable source of information. The annoyance of many of studies about ALA is that they use ALA, not R-ALA, and since ALA is so unstable, I'd have to go through each study one by one to see what they did to account for that. Ugh. All that said, I'm guessing no one is trying to sell R-ALA for Keto since R-ALA seems to be rather expensive and most of the fake keto supplements are super low cost supplements with jacked up prices applied.

heavyset_go 6y ago

Yeah, MDMA is a heavy 5HT releaser, which is the cause of post-MDMA depression after as little as one dose. I wish other relatives to MDMA were investigated, too, like bk-MDMA. It results in less 5HT release, has the same effects as MDMA, but doesn't have a come down with depression as a symptom unless abused.

therealx 6y ago
Interesting. By abused, do you mean prolonged use over many days or large one time dosage or both? If the one time use definition, can you reach a threshold dose for what one considers an mdma experiance and still avoid the bulk of depression?
- therealx 6y ago
  I just checked erowid and it seems to be a very different experiance. Still seems interesting!
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  > By abused, do you mean prolonged use over many days or large one time dosage or both? What I mean by abuse is use over multiple days.