8 ms·

Crime and gang activity is increasing, especially in prisons where every yard is now active. Local street gangs sets have multiplied with the influx of people (

Crime and gang activity is increasing, especially in prisons where every yard is now active. Local street gangs sets have multiplied with the influx of people (many homeless), drugs, welfare and larger organized crime operations. Also recent policies decriminalized many acts and have led to rampant street crime in areas like SF and LA. CA provides sanctuary status for illegal immigrants, along with driver licenses, free healthcare and other benefits paid for by tax-paying citizens. Traffic is terrible because of a lack of any other alternatives that are routinely defunded, destroyed and dismissed from high-speed rail to bus lines to ridesharing. CA is now worse than before. It's also worse than many other places. Just because 1 facet is better than somewhere else doesn't impact the objective collective decline. Again, please name 10 things that have gotten better in CA over the last decade if you can.

fataliss 6y ago
Do you have any source on these claims? Cause these are typically hard to measure and I get suspicious when I read "Also recent policies decriminalized many acts and have led to rampant street crime" and other welfare correlation with crime. Happy to learn new things tho :)
- manigandham 6y ago
  https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/An-explosion-of-California-property-crimes-6922062.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/An-exp... https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-prop-47-shoplifting-theft-crime-statewide https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-prop-47-shoplifting-th... https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/05/14/shoplifting-california-prop-47-reduced-penalties/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/05/14/shoplifting-cal... Why are you suspicious? When you stop arresting people for crimes and allow criminal behavior then you get more crime. This is so correlated as to be mathematical fact. This is no different to NY removing bail and then being surprised that criminals walk right out of the courthouse and back to their operations the same day while being further emboldened by these policies. Many think there isn't much crime because they're usually sheltered from it by distance and police activity. It only takes a small gap to notice how bad conditions can get, and how quickly they deteriorate.
  - fataliss 6y ago
    I'm suspicious because oftentimes things are more complex than a single source. These articles all point to a single prop (47) and seem to really point out to shoplifting. At the same time the homelessness increased 14% from 2016 to 2017. So is there more crime because of lawmaking or more crime because more desperate people with seemingly no other recourse? Not claiming to know better, but when it comes to social issue I'd stay away from claiming "mathematical" like correlations. Just my 2c :)
deeviant 6y ago
This description of California reads like a description that somebody that has never been in California but watches fox news would give.
- ddoolin 6y ago
  Agreed. There's a lot of boogeymen in there.
- manigandham 6y ago
  Do you live here? What area? I've been a California resident for over 20 years. Feel free to come down to LA and I'll walk you through the actual streets from downtown to Inglewood. We can even visit a few prisons where I can introduce you to people on both sides of the law, visit the various homeless areas, and talk to the gang task force and DEA agents. Maybe we can also go down to the border and see how things are. Or perhaps are you too used to a single media perspective and have little experience with the reality on the ground?
  - deeviant 6y ago
    I've lived in California all my life which is over 40 years now, everywhere from LA/Sand Diego to Sacramento, in the bay now. I'm afraid I seem to have more California experience than you. I'm also from a multi-racial family with rich African American roots and spent many summers and trips with my family who mostly live in Lynwood/Compton (no these aren't scary names to me, just places with fond memories of summers spent with cousins). > Or perhaps are you too used to a single media perspective I don't get my perspective from media. I get it from living.
    - phobosanomaly 6y ago
      Life-long Californian as well. There is such a high degree of historical segregation in the state, that sheltered white folks definitely do have a big shock when they, say, hop onto the Purple Line to visit Watts Towers. It's just so different, and I think people don't know how to process it since they have no frame of reference. It's a shame, because historically African American parts of Los Angeles have a wonderfully rich history that is much more than just 'Crips and Bloods.' Glad to hear your perspective.
knowaveragejoe 6y ago
> CA provides sanctuary status for illegal immigrants, along with driver licenses, free healthcare and other benefits paid for by tax-paying citizens. I see these easily debunked anti-immigration talking points regularly elsewhere on the web in right-wing circles, but I'm surprised to see it on HN. I encourage anyone interested in the reality of immigration(including the common myths like the above) to either read Open Borders: The Science and Ethics of Immigration, or watch a short talk on the subject here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6wGLhEW_uc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6wGLhEW_uc
- manigandham 6y ago
  You didn't debunk anything but only posted some open-border ideology. Feel free to actually respond to the specific policies that are affecting the state of California instead. Here's just 1 example to get you started: Illegal immigrants have free healthcare until the age of 26 in California, however tax-paying law-abiding citizens are fined if they don't have health insurance.
  - ddoolin 6y ago
    Why are you comparing a state policy with a federal one? Not to mention the mandate has been declawed and hasn't been enforced in at least a year or two.
    - manigandham 6y ago
      It's a clear example of California's policies. There are many more but you have a strange defense of this state that I can only assume is due to being insulated from the experiences of millions and discounting them as false.
  - gowld 6y ago
    Citizens get the same free healthcare as undocumented immigrants.
    - knowaveragejoe 6y ago
ddoolin 6y ago
Illegal immigration should not be seen a failing of the state but as the abject failure of the federal government's immigration policies. Texas has, proportional to total population, more illegal immigrants than California and indeed any other state (at least by estimates). And guess what? They are getting free healthcare there and everywhere else too! If California's sanctuary policies are what's preventing the feds from deporting them, why does Texas, who is staunchly anti-illegal, continue to boast such a high illegal population? I'm actually proud that California gives some small humanity to the illegal immigrants here since the federal government has decided not to do the job that they decry as such a huge problem. Also, it's really...strange...to place the blame for the fires or the weather at the foot of the state.
- manigandham 6y ago
  Does your point only work if you do "proportional to total population"? Why does that matter? Texas has El Paso which has major criminal drug and border activity. What does Texas have to do with California anyway? Why is your only defense picking single skewed metrics and comparing it to separate places? Are you going to compare CA as a whole against TX or would that reveal your bias? You still haven't answered what has gotten better in CA over the last 10 years so I'm going to end this here. EDIT for your newly added last line: I thought about this and figured that HN readers would understand that "weather isn't great either" was in addition to the other issues and even specifically wrote "main cause" in the hopes that nobody would conflate the issues but here we are. But yes fires are mostly due to poor planning and infrastructure. Wildfires are the most preventable disaster but California has gotten to the point where insurance companies are proactively cancelling policies because of the fire damage.
  - ddoolin 6y ago
    In a thread about people fleeing from California to other states, particularly Texas, it's certainly an appropriate comparison. Even more so when you consider Texas is about the closest in size and population except with nearly opposite politics. Comparisons are useful when talking about something in relative terms. Absolute statistics don't mean much in the context of moving from one place to another. You can say California is terrible but within the realistic options, not really. I didn't present any skewed metrics. You twice pointed out illegal immigrants with emphasis on their contrast to "tax-paying" citizens but failed to connect it to any deeper meaning. So what if they've given them driver's licenses or paid for children & young adult healthcare? At least they've made attempts to integrate them, ostensibly recognizing their hardships and to prevent them from engaging in crime or becoming homeless. Wildfires are easily preventable if you draw the line at individuals not lighting shit on fire in arid areas or private companies better maintaining their infrastructure.
WalterBright 6y ago
In Seattle, the official crime rate is down, but a lot of people have simply stopped reporting crimes because of lack of response. The actual crime rate is unknown. But the boarded up shop windows say a lot.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
nouveaux 6y ago
Crime has been coming down after prop 47 passed. This is such a common myth that I put the data into google sheets for these discussions. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QgrfJvfa8XaVm0MEfU4jo36pw4UkT_5R9OsyInN29w4/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QgrfJvfa8XaVm0MEfU4j...
- manigandham 6y ago
  ...based on reporting of crime; reporting which is directly affected by the very proposition that completely reclassifies criminal acts, and in reality makes many of them go unpoliced and unreported.

fataliss 6y ago

Do you have any source on these claims? Cause these are typically hard to measure and I get suspicious when I read "Also recent policies decriminalized many acts and have led to rampant street crime" and other welfare correlation with crime. Happy to learn new things tho :)

manigandham 6y ago
https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/An-explosion-of-California-property-crimes-6922062.php https://www.sfchronicle.com/opinion/openforum/article/An-exp... https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-prop-47-shoplifting-theft-crime-statewide https://www.foxnews.com/us/california-prop-47-shoplifting-th... https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/05/14/shoplifting-california-prop-47-reduced-penalties/ https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2016/05/14/shoplifting-cal... Why are you suspicious? When you stop arresting people for crimes and allow criminal behavior then you get more crime. This is so correlated as to be mathematical fact. This is no different to NY removing bail and then being surprised that criminals walk right out of the courthouse and back to their operations the same day while being further emboldened by these policies. Many think there isn't much crime because they're usually sheltered from it by distance and police activity. It only takes a small gap to notice how bad conditions can get, and how quickly they deteriorate.
- fataliss 6y ago
  I'm suspicious because oftentimes things are more complex than a single source. These articles all point to a single prop (47) and seem to really point out to shoplifting. At the same time the homelessness increased 14% from 2016 to 2017. So is there more crime because of lawmaking or more crime because more desperate people with seemingly no other recourse? Not claiming to know better, but when it comes to social issue I'd stay away from claiming "mathematical" like correlations. Just my 2c :)

deeviant 6y ago

This description of California reads like a description that somebody that has never been in California but watches fox news would give.

ddoolin 6y ago
Agreed. There's a lot of boogeymen in there.
manigandham 6y ago
Do you live here? What area? I've been a California resident for over 20 years. Feel free to come down to LA and I'll walk you through the actual streets from downtown to Inglewood. We can even visit a few prisons where I can introduce you to people on both sides of the law, visit the various homeless areas, and talk to the gang task force and DEA agents. Maybe we can also go down to the border and see how things are. Or perhaps are you too used to a single media perspective and have little experience with the reality on the ground?
- deeviant 6y ago
  I've lived in California all my life which is over 40 years now, everywhere from LA/Sand Diego to Sacramento, in the bay now. I'm afraid I seem to have more California experience than you. I'm also from a multi-racial family with rich African American roots and spent many summers and trips with my family who mostly live in Lynwood/Compton (no these aren't scary names to me, just places with fond memories of summers spent with cousins). > Or perhaps are you too used to a single media perspective I don't get my perspective from media. I get it from living.
  - phobosanomaly 6y ago
    Life-long Californian as well. There is such a high degree of historical segregation in the state, that sheltered white folks definitely do have a big shock when they, say, hop onto the Purple Line to visit Watts Towers. It's just so different, and I think people don't know how to process it since they have no frame of reference. It's a shame, because historically African American parts of Los Angeles have a wonderfully rich history that is much more than just 'Crips and Bloods.' Glad to hear your perspective.

knowaveragejoe 6y ago

> CA provides sanctuary status for illegal immigrants, along with driver licenses, free healthcare and other benefits paid for by tax-paying citizens. I see these easily debunked anti-immigration talking points regularly elsewhere on the web in right-wing circles, but I'm surprised to see it on HN. I encourage anyone interested in the reality of immigration(including the common myths like the above) to either read Open Borders: The Science and Ethics of Immigration, or watch a short talk on the subject here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6wGLhEW_uc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6wGLhEW_uc

manigandham 6y ago
You didn't debunk anything but only posted some open-border ideology. Feel free to actually respond to the specific policies that are affecting the state of California instead. Here's just 1 example to get you started: Illegal immigrants have free healthcare until the age of 26 in California, however tax-paying law-abiding citizens are fined if they don't have health insurance.
- ddoolin 6y ago
  Why are you comparing a state policy with a federal one? Not to mention the mandate has been declawed and hasn't been enforced in at least a year or two.
  - manigandham 6y ago
    It's a clear example of California's policies. There are many more but you have a strange defense of this state that I can only assume is due to being insulated from the experiences of millions and discounting them as false.
- gowld 6y ago
  Citizens get the same free healthcare as undocumented immigrants.
  - knowaveragejoe 6y ago

ddoolin 6y ago

Illegal immigration should not be seen a failing of the state but as the abject failure of the federal government's immigration policies. Texas has, proportional to total population, more illegal immigrants than California and indeed any other state (at least by estimates). And guess what? They are getting free healthcare there and everywhere else too! If California's sanctuary policies are what's preventing the feds from deporting them, why does Texas, who is staunchly anti-illegal, continue to boast such a high illegal population? I'm actually proud that California gives some small humanity to the illegal immigrants here since the federal government has decided not to do the job that they decry as such a huge problem. Also, it's really...strange...to place the blame for the fires or the weather at the foot of the state.

manigandham 6y ago
Does your point only work if you do "proportional to total population"? Why does that matter? Texas has El Paso which has major criminal drug and border activity. What does Texas have to do with California anyway? Why is your only defense picking single skewed metrics and comparing it to separate places? Are you going to compare CA as a whole against TX or would that reveal your bias? You still haven't answered what has gotten better in CA over the last 10 years so I'm going to end this here. EDIT for your newly added last line: I thought about this and figured that HN readers would understand that "weather isn't great either" was in addition to the other issues and even specifically wrote "main cause" in the hopes that nobody would conflate the issues but here we are. But yes fires are mostly due to poor planning and infrastructure. Wildfires are the most preventable disaster but California has gotten to the point where insurance companies are proactively cancelling policies because of the fire damage.
- ddoolin 6y ago
  In a thread about people fleeing from California to other states, particularly Texas, it's certainly an appropriate comparison. Even more so when you consider Texas is about the closest in size and population except with nearly opposite politics. Comparisons are useful when talking about something in relative terms. Absolute statistics don't mean much in the context of moving from one place to another. You can say California is terrible but within the realistic options, not really. I didn't present any skewed metrics. You twice pointed out illegal immigrants with emphasis on their contrast to "tax-paying" citizens but failed to connect it to any deeper meaning. So what if they've given them driver's licenses or paid for children & young adult healthcare? At least they've made attempts to integrate them, ostensibly recognizing their hardships and to prevent them from engaging in crime or becoming homeless. Wildfires are easily preventable if you draw the line at individuals not lighting shit on fire in arid areas or private companies better maintaining their infrastructure.

WalterBright 6y ago

In Seattle, the official crime rate is down, but a lot of people have simply stopped reporting crimes because of lack of response. The actual crime rate is unknown. But the boarded up shop windows say a lot.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

nouveaux 6y ago

Crime has been coming down after prop 47 passed. This is such a common myth that I put the data into google sheets for these discussions. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QgrfJvfa8XaVm0MEfU4jo36pw4UkT_5R9OsyInN29w4/edit?usp=sharing https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1QgrfJvfa8XaVm0MEfU4j...

manigandham 6y ago
...based on reporting of crime; reporting which is directly affected by the very proposition that completely reclassifies criminal acts, and in reality makes many of them go unpoliced and unreported.