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> Eat less" is the correct advice for weight less just like "don't drink" is for alcoholics and "don't think of him" is for someone going through a breakup. It'

> Eat less" is the correct advice for weight less just like "don't drink" is for alcoholics and "don't think of him" is for someone going through a breakup. It's just basically useless advice totally lacking empathy. People are different. They have different bodies, different psychological dispositions, different experiences, etc. None of what you described changes the example solutions you gave. An alcoholic does need to not drink to improve their health, just like to lose weight you do need to eat fewer calories. The way to solve a problem is to find the solution, and empathy doesn't cure being overweight or addiction. Only when you know the solution can you work backwards to find the steps to get you there from where you are today

ogre_codes 6y ago
> empathy doesn't cure being overweight or addiction No, but it would prevent a lot of insensitive, boneheaded forum posts. EDIT: Wasn't trying to suggest your post was insensitive or boneheaded.
- Zancarius 6y ago
  > EDIT: Wasn't trying to suggest your post was insensitive or boneheaded. Maybe it wasn't, but I think your original sentiment wasn't far off from my reaction to the same OP. While I haven't struggled all that much with my weight, I know people who have. One of the most important things for weight loss (and anything else for that matter, up to and including break ups, as was in the original example) is support networks. I learned that lesson rather harshly when I went through a really ugly break up earlier this year. Humans are social creatures, after all, and I can't fault you for your original response. We need others around us who are a positive influence.
CogitoCogito 6y ago
> Only when you know the solution can you work backwards to find the steps to get you there from where you are today I specifically said that the advice was _correct_. My point is that fact isn't that useful. Knowing the solution (i.e. eat less, drink less, think less) is the _easy_ part. It's the part these people have usually been told many times. It's rarely a lack of advice that is missing. It's true that empathy doesn't cure these problems. But it is through empathy that you can understand what someone's true obstacles are to the "obvious" solutions.
- silicon2401 6y ago
  > My point is that fact isn't that useful. Do you think the fact isn't useful to the people who don't know it yet?
  - CogitoCogito 6y ago
    In fact I do. To the people who don't know it yet it is useful. However, to the people who already know it, it's really just useless information. Information they've heard many times before and potentially only makes them feel worse about themselves and less likely to follow the recommendations given. If you're making the argument that most people don't know that eating less leads to weight-loss, then okay. I admit I don't have statistics, but I find that quite suspect. If we can at least both agree that telling it to people who already know doesn't help anything, then I'm content here.
    - silicon2401 6y ago
      I don't agree with that. 1) because knowing a fact doesn't mean that you really understand it or that it's really made an impact beyond a theoretical awareness. Repeated exposure can hammer it home. And 2) because a lot of people don't know things you know. Even the simplest thing you know, you didn't know until a certain point, and some people haven't reached that point yet. And every day people are born who don't know it yet, or people can be convinced that things are different. For these reasons I think it's important to keep broadcasting the message
dragonwriter 6y ago
> An alcoholic does need to not drink to improve their health Pretty much everyone who drinks needs to not drink to improve their health, but whether alcoholics have a particular need to not drink is controversial and largely widely accepted because of quasi-religious doctrine that has been well marketed. > Only when you know the solution can you work backwards to find the steps to get you there from where you are today Yes, but here’s the thing. Lots of research has actually gone into the steps for weight loss, its not something people need to work out from scratch. Its a lot more productive to follow a path that works even without deep understanding of the rationale than to start with a target and try to work it out from first principles, which most people will fail, and fail very badly, with. Sure, “eat fewer calories” might be generally part of a solution (and “eat fewer calories than you use” definitely will be). But neither of those are particularly useful advice on their own for people who want to lose weight.

ogre_codes 6y ago

> empathy doesn't cure being overweight or addiction No, but it would prevent a lot of insensitive, boneheaded forum posts. EDIT: Wasn't trying to suggest your post was insensitive or boneheaded.

Zancarius 6y ago
> EDIT: Wasn't trying to suggest your post was insensitive or boneheaded. Maybe it wasn't, but I think your original sentiment wasn't far off from my reaction to the same OP. While I haven't struggled all that much with my weight, I know people who have. One of the most important things for weight loss (and anything else for that matter, up to and including break ups, as was in the original example) is support networks. I learned that lesson rather harshly when I went through a really ugly break up earlier this year. Humans are social creatures, after all, and I can't fault you for your original response. We need others around us who are a positive influence.

CogitoCogito 6y ago

> Only when you know the solution can you work backwards to find the steps to get you there from where you are today I specifically said that the advice was _correct_. My point is that fact isn't that useful. Knowing the solution (i.e. eat less, drink less, think less) is the _easy_ part. It's the part these people have usually been told many times. It's rarely a lack of advice that is missing. It's true that empathy doesn't cure these problems. But it is through empathy that you can understand what someone's true obstacles are to the "obvious" solutions.

silicon2401 6y ago
> My point is that fact isn't that useful. Do you think the fact isn't useful to the people who don't know it yet?
- CogitoCogito 6y ago
  In fact I do. To the people who don't know it yet it is useful. However, to the people who already know it, it's really just useless information. Information they've heard many times before and potentially only makes them feel worse about themselves and less likely to follow the recommendations given. If you're making the argument that most people don't know that eating less leads to weight-loss, then okay. I admit I don't have statistics, but I find that quite suspect. If we can at least both agree that telling it to people who already know doesn't help anything, then I'm content here.
  - silicon2401 6y ago
    I don't agree with that. 1) because knowing a fact doesn't mean that you really understand it or that it's really made an impact beyond a theoretical awareness. Repeated exposure can hammer it home. And 2) because a lot of people don't know things you know. Even the simplest thing you know, you didn't know until a certain point, and some people haven't reached that point yet. And every day people are born who don't know it yet, or people can be convinced that things are different. For these reasons I think it's important to keep broadcasting the message

dragonwriter 6y ago

> An alcoholic does need to not drink to improve their health Pretty much everyone who drinks needs to not drink to improve their health, but whether alcoholics have a particular need to not drink is controversial and largely widely accepted because of quasi-religious doctrine that has been well marketed. > Only when you know the solution can you work backwards to find the steps to get you there from where you are today Yes, but here’s the thing. Lots of research has actually gone into the steps for weight loss, its not something people need to work out from scratch. Its a lot more productive to follow a path that works even without deep understanding of the rationale than to start with a target and try to work it out from first principles, which most people will fail, and fail very badly, with. Sure, “eat fewer calories” might be generally part of a solution (and “eat fewer calories than you use” definitely will be). But neither of those are particularly useful advice on their own for people who want to lose weight.