9 ms·

Also: - labor laws (very hard to fire people in many European countries) - lots of disjointed small-to-medium markets (with different laws and languages) make

Also: - labor laws (very hard to fire people in many European countries) - lots of disjointed small-to-medium markets (with different laws and languages) make expansion on continental scale much harder than in the US

ChuckNorris89 6y ago
>- labor laws (very hard to fire people in many European countries) That's just not true now and hasn't been the case anymore since like the 2009 financial crisis. In most of Europe it's trivial to fire an underperforming non-unionized employee as the countries have adapted more business friendly laws to remain competitive after the financial crisis. Sure, there may still be some grey beards somewhere with old bulletproof contracts but for anyone entering the tech workforce now, getting fired is a rubber stamp basically especially since tech workers are not unionized and sometimes benefit from less protection than even some blue-collar professions which are unionized. For example, in Austria you can fire anyone for no reason at all as long as you give them their notice period(usually 1 to 3 months) without them being entitled to any other financial compensation from their employer. Moreover, non-competes are legal here without any form of compensation and you can even fire employees while they're on sick leave. All this legally! The whole you can't get fired in Europe maybe only applies to Scandinavia or France but it's mostly a meme nowadays. Actually, contrary to popular belief, tech workers in California might enjoy better protection than tech workers in some European countries. Let that sink in for a bit.
- dtech 6y ago
  Compared to the US it's still very hard to fire people in most EU countries. In large parts of the US you can fire anyone at anytime [1]. On the other hand Silicon Valley is in California and has some of the strongest labor laws of the US, so if this is such a huge factor why is everyone in SV? Even under the assumption that it's an important factor, would it be worth it for EU to adopt such policies considering the very real human cost?... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
- ur-whale 6y ago
  That's just Austria which is a comparatively small country. In the larger ones (DE, FR) labor laws are a nightmare.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    Labour laws are a nightmare in every country due to bureaucracy but that doesn't mean it's always difficult to fire people. Most companies be it in FR, DE, wherever, have good lawyers on the payroll to advise them o the easiest legal path possible to get rid of undesirable employees. If a company really wants you gone, they'll make it happen one way or another. France was famous for their approach of making an employees' life miserable in order to make them leave as they couldn't fire them easily. Honestly, I'd rather just be fired and get on unemployment than be subjected to psychological torture every day in a poisonous work environment.
    - joelbluminator 6y ago
      > If a company really wants you gone, they'll make it happen one way or another. Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily. Psychologically torturing an employee isn't that good for team morale, even if the employee was underperforming. I also don't think it's as culturally prevalent as you imply.
      - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
        >Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily. Where outside of the US/UK does that happen? Never heard in Europe that you get paid more so you leave when they can boot you out for free and I talked to lawyers about this. The reasoning behind the generous safety nets in Europe is also to make it easier for employee-employer terminations in case it doesn't work out. The laws here are that employers aren't allowed to abuse you, force you into unpaid overtime, etc. but fire you for free they can otherwise nobody would dare become an entrepreneur/investor in an environment where it's impossible to fire someone.
        6y ago
- wizzairflyer 6y ago
  I live in Switzerland and the legal status of (tech) employee is roughly the same to what you describe. I wonder if the difference isn't that firing people "at-will" just is less culturally accepted here. I feel we're in kind of a weird spot between Japan and the US in terms of how the general public conceives the relationship between an employee and an employer.
  - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
    I heard about this here in Austria that Swiss laws are way more business friendly at less worker friendly than here, basically reaching at will employment.
    - wizzairflyer 6y ago
      It "at-will" in the sense that your employer doesn't need to justify firing you. But I wouldn' compare it to what they have in some states in the US. However you still have at least 1 month notice, and often more depending on the industry and seniority. Here in Zürich the standard in tech seems to be 3 month (anecdata though). Where it gets kinda business friendly is that if you are fired for an illegal reason, it's up to you to prove that you were instead of your employer having to prove he fired you for something reasonable. The settlements are also nothing that would deter a company to behave badly I guess. There is also a good tradition of union-like structure in the professions that need it (the ones where one is easily replaceable basically) that give workers a nice protection and benefits. It's not like in France of course but it's far from the US, based on the stories I gleaned about on HN.
- sharpneli 6y ago
  Non-competes are illegal in California. That’s likely a big reason why it is so successful. As an example neither Intel not AMD would exist if non-competes would be allowed there. Iirc Nvidia too.
petra 6y ago
Disjoined markets aren't necessary such a big issue. Israel manages to do well, for example. Usually opening a US office is the common method overcoming that issue.
- burntoutfire 6y ago
  Is there even one unicorn originating from Israel though?
  - dannylandau 6y ago
    Apparently based on this website, there are over 41 and counting -- https://www.techaviv.com/unicorns https://www.techaviv.com/unicorns
Bayart 6y ago
I've grown to be extremely suspicious of anyone taking labour laws as a barrier to be brought down, as it's always come from people who've got nothing to lose from it and weakening them seems to systematically translate into lower standards of living and higher income inequality.

ChuckNorris89 6y ago

>- labor laws (very hard to fire people in many European countries) That's just not true now and hasn't been the case anymore since like the 2009 financial crisis. In most of Europe it's trivial to fire an underperforming non-unionized employee as the countries have adapted more business friendly laws to remain competitive after the financial crisis. Sure, there may still be some grey beards somewhere with old bulletproof contracts but for anyone entering the tech workforce now, getting fired is a rubber stamp basically especially since tech workers are not unionized and sometimes benefit from less protection than even some blue-collar professions which are unionized. For example, in Austria you can fire anyone for no reason at all as long as you give them their notice period(usually 1 to 3 months) without them being entitled to any other financial compensation from their employer. Moreover, non-competes are legal here without any form of compensation and you can even fire employees while they're on sick leave. All this legally! The whole you can't get fired in Europe maybe only applies to Scandinavia or France but it's mostly a meme nowadays. Actually, contrary to popular belief, tech workers in California might enjoy better protection than tech workers in some European countries. Let that sink in for a bit.

dtech 6y ago
Compared to the US it's still very hard to fire people in most EU countries. In large parts of the US you can fire anyone at anytime [1]. On the other hand Silicon Valley is in California and has some of the strongest labor laws of the US, so if this is such a huge factor why is everyone in SV? Even under the assumption that it's an important factor, would it be worth it for EU to adopt such policies considering the very real human cost?... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment
ur-whale 6y ago
That's just Austria which is a comparatively small country. In the larger ones (DE, FR) labor laws are a nightmare.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  Labour laws are a nightmare in every country due to bureaucracy but that doesn't mean it's always difficult to fire people. Most companies be it in FR, DE, wherever, have good lawyers on the payroll to advise them o the easiest legal path possible to get rid of undesirable employees. If a company really wants you gone, they'll make it happen one way or another. France was famous for their approach of making an employees' life miserable in order to make them leave as they couldn't fire them easily. Honestly, I'd rather just be fired and get on unemployment than be subjected to psychological torture every day in a poisonous work environment.
  - joelbluminator 6y ago
    > If a company really wants you gone, they'll make it happen one way or another. Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily. Psychologically torturing an employee isn't that good for team morale, even if the employee was underperforming. I also don't think it's as culturally prevalent as you imply.
    - ChuckNorris89 6y ago
      >Well they usually do it by compensating the employee quite heavily. Where outside of the US/UK does that happen? Never heard in Europe that you get paid more so you leave when they can boot you out for free and I talked to lawyers about this. The reasoning behind the generous safety nets in Europe is also to make it easier for employee-employer terminations in case it doesn't work out. The laws here are that employers aren't allowed to abuse you, force you into unpaid overtime, etc. but fire you for free they can otherwise nobody would dare become an entrepreneur/investor in an environment where it's impossible to fire someone.
      - 6y ago
wizzairflyer 6y ago
I live in Switzerland and the legal status of (tech) employee is roughly the same to what you describe. I wonder if the difference isn't that firing people "at-will" just is less culturally accepted here. I feel we're in kind of a weird spot between Japan and the US in terms of how the general public conceives the relationship between an employee and an employer.
- ChuckNorris89 6y ago
  I heard about this here in Austria that Swiss laws are way more business friendly at less worker friendly than here, basically reaching at will employment.
  - wizzairflyer 6y ago
    It "at-will" in the sense that your employer doesn't need to justify firing you. But I wouldn' compare it to what they have in some states in the US. However you still have at least 1 month notice, and often more depending on the industry and seniority. Here in Zürich the standard in tech seems to be 3 month (anecdata though). Where it gets kinda business friendly is that if you are fired for an illegal reason, it's up to you to prove that you were instead of your employer having to prove he fired you for something reasonable. The settlements are also nothing that would deter a company to behave badly I guess. There is also a good tradition of union-like structure in the professions that need it (the ones where one is easily replaceable basically) that give workers a nice protection and benefits. It's not like in France of course but it's far from the US, based on the stories I gleaned about on HN.
sharpneli 6y ago
Non-competes are illegal in California. That’s likely a big reason why it is so successful. As an example neither Intel not AMD would exist if non-competes would be allowed there. Iirc Nvidia too.

petra 6y ago

Disjoined markets aren't necessary such a big issue. Israel manages to do well, for example. Usually opening a US office is the common method overcoming that issue.

burntoutfire 6y ago
Is there even one unicorn originating from Israel though?
- dannylandau 6y ago
  Apparently based on this website, there are over 41 and counting -- https://www.techaviv.com/unicorns https://www.techaviv.com/unicorns

Bayart 6y ago

I've grown to be extremely suspicious of anyone taking labour laws as a barrier to be brought down, as it's always come from people who've got nothing to lose from it and weakening them seems to systematically translate into lower standards of living and higher income inequality.