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Yes, most places in the country have a massive deficit this year because states are spending money to protect their citizens and stimulate the economy. So this

Yes, most places in the country have a massive deficit this year because states are spending money to protect their citizens and stimulate the economy. So this year is an odd year for most states... don't try and single out California as this bad actor that can't manage its finances. That narrative is misleading.

busterarm 6y ago
California has historically had budget problems for decades and resolved things 8 years ago through increased taxes. It also increased taxes by about $2B this year. As recently as 2017, the state miscalculated the costs of Medi-Cal and had a 1.6B deficit for the year. The argument that I'm framing is that the state has to continuously dig further into its citizens pockets in order to fund its appetite for spending. It's entirely true.
- boringg 6y ago
  Listen, CA is a state of big numbers - big deficits and big surplus's (Surplus of $9B in 2018, $7B in 2019). It's a function of being the 5th largest economy of the world Gross State Produce ($3.2 Trillion) larger than India and the UK. It has raised taxes, but mostly in a progressive way targeted at high income earners. At lot of marginal tax revenue comes from IPOs and equity sales. It has intrinsic problems and some pretty bad policies that linger to this day (impacts from prop 13 for example). It's still the best state to live in, has great opportunity for many people and tries to implement long term policies benefitting is citizens and is a global leader. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/debt-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/debt-by-sta...
  - ghostwriter 6y ago
    > It's still the best state to live in, has great opportunity for many people and tries to implement long term policies benefitting is citizens and is a global leader. This is all good, until we put another element into the equation. How about stability of the system? It turns out it's predicated on your current- and future- (especially future) citizens' productiveness and willingness to cope with ever growing appetites of the state government. It's been accumulating debt since 1990s, and all the growth that you attribute with a "success" tag is predicated on the expectation that the future generations will figure the solution to the ever growing debt problem. What happens in fact is that the government is stealing the future from the generations to come - it's they who will have to pay for the debt of the current government. And they may just rightfully refuse to do it by moving elsewhere.
    - boringg 6y ago
      Listen, the debt problem is still a debt problem that isn't fixed in one year and definitely not this year or the next couple. We aren't near a tipping point on debt so out of all our problems right now that one is sitting very low at the bottom. There are many lenders standing quite happily to provide debt to California for ultra cheap rates. We aren't getting out of this pandemic financial mess through cutting spending. Literally no republican or democrat is pitching that solution - do you have your own economic crystal ball to read the future? Go look to how that worked out for the austerity measure put in play in the EU or during the great depression. As well right now debt is ultra cheap so any borrowed money to cover downtime when people can't work to protect their health is likely going to have upside in generation of jobs, general well being and future revenue. If you want to go take that generational wealth tax fight argument probably better to start with the federal government instead of wagging your finger at California. And in terms of stability of the system that is a much larger macro economic question. There is a great amount of debate in the academic community on how much debt countries can sustainably support especially with Modern Monetary Theory getting traction. I don't think MMT is grounded in its origins but it has pointed to a greater sustainability of deficit on our countries balance sheet as well as us getting to a higher level of employment in our population than we had previously though.
gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
> Yes, most places in the country have a massive deficit this year because states are spending money to protect their citizens and stimulate the economy. This is Stockholm syndrome. Are citizens being protected? Because last I checked, the "smart" people have largely outlawed working, destroyed any semblance of normal life, the average person is $5k behind on rent, and all the old people died. The federal government has all but given up pretending money is a finite resource. Likewise states are much the same. There really is no such thing as fiscal discipline nowadays. You can't stimulate an economy if no one is allowed to work besides the already well-off that can work from home. It's just class war under the guise of public health.
- busterarm 6y ago
  Right! All of these state budgets depend on projected tax revenue which isn't coming. People aren't working. People aren't having kids. People aren't staying in the state. The cuts MUST be massive.
  - boringg 6y ago
    It's a long game guys, come on. It's not this year's budget or next years -- it's a multi year cycle. The stress off our health care system as a result of lockdowns and the lives saved is enormous. If California adopted a libertarian approach to the pandemic it would be in a step change of pain compared to where it is. I do get the sense that right now I am just feeding the trolls - it's a bad feeling.
    - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
      > The stress off our health care system as a result of lockdowns and the lives saved is enormous. This is all supposition that says nothing about the horrific costs. You could be right, but this won’t be apparent for a while and it’d be nice if people at least had the humility to admit they’re making a bet and forcing a plan on people that will destroy their livelihoods. What makes this particularly offensive is that the authorities have little accountability and skin in the game. The “libertarian” approach at least respects the dignity of people to assess risks they’re willing to take and assume the responsibility for the costs of the measures they take.
dcolkitt 6y ago
> don't try and single out California as this bad actor that can't manage its finances California's 2020 budget shortfall is projected at $54 billion.[1] Florida's 2020 budget shortfall is projected at $2.7 billion[2]. In other words, on a per-capita basis, California has ten times the shortfall as Florida. [1] https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/06/29/governor-newsom-signs-2020-budget-act/ https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/06/29/governor-newsom-signs-2020... [2] https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/politics/state/2020/09/10/a-2-7-billion-florida-budget-shortfall-looms-as-coronavirus-unleashes-tide-of-red-ink/5766622002/ https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/politics/state/2020...

busterarm 6y ago

California has historically had budget problems for decades and resolved things 8 years ago through increased taxes. It also increased taxes by about $2B this year. As recently as 2017, the state miscalculated the costs of Medi-Cal and had a 1.6B deficit for the year. The argument that I'm framing is that the state has to continuously dig further into its citizens pockets in order to fund its appetite for spending. It's entirely true.

boringg 6y ago
Listen, CA is a state of big numbers - big deficits and big surplus's (Surplus of $9B in 2018, $7B in 2019). It's a function of being the 5th largest economy of the world Gross State Produce ($3.2 Trillion) larger than India and the UK. It has raised taxes, but mostly in a progressive way targeted at high income earners. At lot of marginal tax revenue comes from IPOs and equity sales. It has intrinsic problems and some pretty bad policies that linger to this day (impacts from prop 13 for example). It's still the best state to live in, has great opportunity for many people and tries to implement long term policies benefitting is citizens and is a global leader. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/debt-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/debt-by-sta...
- ghostwriter 6y ago
  > It's still the best state to live in, has great opportunity for many people and tries to implement long term policies benefitting is citizens and is a global leader. This is all good, until we put another element into the equation. How about stability of the system? It turns out it's predicated on your current- and future- (especially future) citizens' productiveness and willingness to cope with ever growing appetites of the state government. It's been accumulating debt since 1990s, and all the growth that you attribute with a "success" tag is predicated on the expectation that the future generations will figure the solution to the ever growing debt problem. What happens in fact is that the government is stealing the future from the generations to come - it's they who will have to pay for the debt of the current government. And they may just rightfully refuse to do it by moving elsewhere.
  - boringg 6y ago
    Listen, the debt problem is still a debt problem that isn't fixed in one year and definitely not this year or the next couple. We aren't near a tipping point on debt so out of all our problems right now that one is sitting very low at the bottom. There are many lenders standing quite happily to provide debt to California for ultra cheap rates. We aren't getting out of this pandemic financial mess through cutting spending. Literally no republican or democrat is pitching that solution - do you have your own economic crystal ball to read the future? Go look to how that worked out for the austerity measure put in play in the EU or during the great depression. As well right now debt is ultra cheap so any borrowed money to cover downtime when people can't work to protect their health is likely going to have upside in generation of jobs, general well being and future revenue. If you want to go take that generational wealth tax fight argument probably better to start with the federal government instead of wagging your finger at California. And in terms of stability of the system that is a much larger macro economic question. There is a great amount of debate in the academic community on how much debt countries can sustainably support especially with Modern Monetary Theory getting traction. I don't think MMT is grounded in its origins but it has pointed to a greater sustainability of deficit on our countries balance sheet as well as us getting to a higher level of employment in our population than we had previously though.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago

> Yes, most places in the country have a massive deficit this year because states are spending money to protect their citizens and stimulate the economy. This is Stockholm syndrome. Are citizens being protected? Because last I checked, the "smart" people have largely outlawed working, destroyed any semblance of normal life, the average person is $5k behind on rent, and all the old people died. The federal government has all but given up pretending money is a finite resource. Likewise states are much the same. There really is no such thing as fiscal discipline nowadays. You can't stimulate an economy if no one is allowed to work besides the already well-off that can work from home. It's just class war under the guise of public health.

busterarm 6y ago
Right! All of these state budgets depend on projected tax revenue which isn't coming. People aren't working. People aren't having kids. People aren't staying in the state. The cuts MUST be massive.
- boringg 6y ago
  It's a long game guys, come on. It's not this year's budget or next years -- it's a multi year cycle. The stress off our health care system as a result of lockdowns and the lives saved is enormous. If California adopted a libertarian approach to the pandemic it would be in a step change of pain compared to where it is. I do get the sense that right now I am just feeding the trolls - it's a bad feeling.
  - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
    > The stress off our health care system as a result of lockdowns and the lives saved is enormous. This is all supposition that says nothing about the horrific costs. You could be right, but this won’t be apparent for a while and it’d be nice if people at least had the humility to admit they’re making a bet and forcing a plan on people that will destroy their livelihoods. What makes this particularly offensive is that the authorities have little accountability and skin in the game. The “libertarian” approach at least respects the dignity of people to assess risks they’re willing to take and assume the responsibility for the costs of the measures they take.

dcolkitt 6y ago

> don't try and single out California as this bad actor that can't manage its finances California's 2020 budget shortfall is projected at $54 billion.[1] Florida's 2020 budget shortfall is projected at $2.7 billion[2]. In other words, on a per-capita basis, California has ten times the shortfall as Florida. [1] https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/06/29/governor-newsom-signs-2020-budget-act/ https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/06/29/governor-newsom-signs-2020... [2] https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/politics/state/2020/09/10/a-2-7-billion-florida-budget-shortfall-looms-as-coronavirus-unleashes-tide-of-red-ink/5766622002/ https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/politics/state/2020...