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Jeez. They could have been doing this for the last month before it became endemic. How much damage did the Trump team do to America's democracy with a month of

Jeez. They could have been doing this for the last month before it became endemic. How much damage did the Trump team do to America's democracy with a month of sore-losership?

rubyist5eva 6y ago
Probably the same amount of damage that Gore did in about 1.5 months of sore-losership.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  ? That was very much closer, and subject to reasonable recounts. This egregious slandering of any state that voted for Biden is of a different nature altogether. 306 to 232 - I mean, get real. Recounts at this stage (or really, any stage since election night) are rabble rousing pointless grandstanding.
  - jeltz 6y ago
    Yeah, recounts are pretty silly at this point since it is virtually impossible that they could change anything. On the other hand this election has yet again (just like when Al Gore lost) highlighted how bad some US states are at holding elections and counting votes. Why is it so hard? There are many states and countries who can hold an election without this chaos.
    - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
      You're right, but this one was worse than usual because of Covid. Far more mail-in ballots, more spacing between observers and workers, fewer observers, and some of it having to be figured out on the fly. That makes this one messier than normal. Don't judge their ability to run elections by this election - it's not a fair test of normal circumstances.
- tzs 6y ago
  That was a 500 vote difference out of 6 million votes, a 0.009% difference, in a single state, where there were known to have been severe issues with the ballots. Both sides agreed that there were serious issues with the ballots and counting, with the only dispute being how to address them because the issues made it pretty much impossible to determine who actually would have won if the system had been able to correctly register the intended vote of every voter. There were no serious allegations that anyone did anything illegal or tampered with the votes. I have a hard time believing that you are seriously comparing that to 2020, where those trying to overturn the election are alleging intentional widespread fraud in multiple states, without being able to offer any creditable evidence that it happened. All the evidence they offer generally falls into three categories: 1. Things that are outright factually incorrect. For example, that video of vote counting in Pennsylvania (I think that was the state...) that supposedly shows suitcases of fake ballots being snuck in and opened late at night. If you watch the full surveillance video, instead of just that short extract, you see that (1) those are the standard containers they use to store ballots when they are not actively working with them, and (2) those particular ballots were ballots they were working with earlier and put in those containers when they stopped. In other words, all the excerpt is actually showing is the normal resumption of processing after a break. Another example is the claims that votes were counted without Republican observers allowed in the room, usually based on Republican observers being turned away. Some observers were in fact turned away--because there were already the maximum number of legally allowed observers from their party in the room. 2. Things that are true, but are not evidence of fraud or error. For example, various statistical measures of a candidate's votes look different between the winner and loser in districts where one candidate receives a lot more votes than the other. They point to these in heavy Biden districts, saying the differences indicate tampering. But if you look at heavy Trump districts, you see the same thing but going the other way. 3. Actual mistakes, such as ballots lost or miscounted. You get some of these in every big election, and no one has found any evidence that these mistakes were more frequent in this election, and even if every single one of this kind of mistake went in Biden's favor, it would not be anywhere near enough to change the outcome in any state.
chrisco255 6y ago
There's video evidence of Republican poll watchers being thrown out of key precincts in swing states, with hundreds of thousands of ballots being counted overnight with no chain of custody, signature verification, or oversight from opposing parties. THAT is damaging to democracy. That has to be addressed and not suppressed.
- mmastrac 6y ago
  Great example. This is exactly the conspiracy damage that they could have prevented by cracking down on this stuff earlier. All of this is easily disproven.
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    It's not a conspiracy. There's active litigation heading to the Supreme Court this week to address this. There's nearly 1000 signed witness affidavits attesting to this. There's video evidence backing it up. https://twitter.com/kelliwardaz/status/1335225504899739649 https://twitter.com/kelliwardaz/status/1335225504899739649
    - mmastrac 6y ago
      Yeah, the side that says the election was stolen is what? 1:50 for wins/losses? Weird how all the claims that are so strong magically don't appear in the actual suits where there are real consequences for lying. The supreme court is going to drop this case, like every other venue has. Stacking the court at the last minute with a conservative judge isn't going to magically save this losing case. Have you seen these witnesses? Have you seen their testimony? Have you seen the lawsuits that were submitted with typos on the first page? (EDIT: first line! [1]) This entire thing is a grift and a sham that will thankfully come to an end within a week. [1] https://archive.org/details/complaint-cj-pearson-v.-kemp-11.25.2020 https://archive.org/details/complaint-cj-pearson-v.-kemp-11....
      - djsumdog 6y ago
        I've watched a ton of the testimony and read several of the lawsuits. In PA alone, you had 1.7 million mail in ballots sent out and over 2 million received. There are completely insane numbers of cases where dead people have voted, where signatures were not verified at all, where people who moved voted, where women found others had voted under their maiden names. There is a real big problem with election irregularities. There was a lot going on. Whenever counting stops .. and takes days, that's a sign that someone is injecting ballots. That's what happens in corrupt nations in South/Central American and Africa and Russia. We are in very real danger of losing all confidence in the election process in America. If you don't see that, you are selectively ignoring a dangerous reality. The Supreme Court is going to take these cases, and if they see the evidence and declare these States violated the laws ... America is going to loose their collective shit and we'll see riots like you wouldn't believe from the left. If Biden gets certified ... you'll see massive violence from the far-left and the media will blame it on right wing conservatives. You should probably go read 1984 and then watch the news again.
smt88 6y ago
I generally agree with you, but I doubt YT did a significant amount of damage compared to all the mainstream news coverage of Trump himself. If Trump were a no-name fringe conspiracist, YT could be blamed for amplifying him. But he has Twitter, every news org, and his campaign's mailing list that (combined) are probably far more influential.

Jeez. They could have been doing this for the last month before it became endemic. How much damage did the Trump team do to America's democracy with a month of sore-losership?

rubyist5eva 6y ago

Probably the same amount of damage that Gore did in about 1.5 months of sore-losership.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
? That was very much closer, and subject to reasonable recounts. This egregious slandering of any state that voted for Biden is of a different nature altogether. 306 to 232 - I mean, get real. Recounts at this stage (or really, any stage since election night) are rabble rousing pointless grandstanding.
- jeltz 6y ago
  Yeah, recounts are pretty silly at this point since it is virtually impossible that they could change anything. On the other hand this election has yet again (just like when Al Gore lost) highlighted how bad some US states are at holding elections and counting votes. Why is it so hard? There are many states and countries who can hold an election without this chaos.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    You're right, but this one was worse than usual because of Covid. Far more mail-in ballots, more spacing between observers and workers, fewer observers, and some of it having to be figured out on the fly. That makes this one messier than normal. Don't judge their ability to run elections by this election - it's not a fair test of normal circumstances.
tzs 6y ago
That was a 500 vote difference out of 6 million votes, a 0.009% difference, in a single state, where there were known to have been severe issues with the ballots. Both sides agreed that there were serious issues with the ballots and counting, with the only dispute being how to address them because the issues made it pretty much impossible to determine who actually would have won if the system had been able to correctly register the intended vote of every voter. There were no serious allegations that anyone did anything illegal or tampered with the votes. I have a hard time believing that you are seriously comparing that to 2020, where those trying to overturn the election are alleging intentional widespread fraud in multiple states, without being able to offer any creditable evidence that it happened. All the evidence they offer generally falls into three categories: 1. Things that are outright factually incorrect. For example, that video of vote counting in Pennsylvania (I think that was the state...) that supposedly shows suitcases of fake ballots being snuck in and opened late at night. If you watch the full surveillance video, instead of just that short extract, you see that (1) those are the standard containers they use to store ballots when they are not actively working with them, and (2) those particular ballots were ballots they were working with earlier and put in those containers when they stopped. In other words, all the excerpt is actually showing is the normal resumption of processing after a break. Another example is the claims that votes were counted without Republican observers allowed in the room, usually based on Republican observers being turned away. Some observers were in fact turned away--because there were already the maximum number of legally allowed observers from their party in the room. 2. Things that are true, but are not evidence of fraud or error. For example, various statistical measures of a candidate's votes look different between the winner and loser in districts where one candidate receives a lot more votes than the other. They point to these in heavy Biden districts, saying the differences indicate tampering. But if you look at heavy Trump districts, you see the same thing but going the other way. 3. Actual mistakes, such as ballots lost or miscounted. You get some of these in every big election, and no one has found any evidence that these mistakes were more frequent in this election, and even if every single one of this kind of mistake went in Biden's favor, it would not be anywhere near enough to change the outcome in any state.

chrisco255 6y ago

There's video evidence of Republican poll watchers being thrown out of key precincts in swing states, with hundreds of thousands of ballots being counted overnight with no chain of custody, signature verification, or oversight from opposing parties. THAT is damaging to democracy. That has to be addressed and not suppressed.

mmastrac 6y ago
Great example. This is exactly the conspiracy damage that they could have prevented by cracking down on this stuff earlier. All of this is easily disproven.
- chrisco255 6y ago
  It's not a conspiracy. There's active litigation heading to the Supreme Court this week to address this. There's nearly 1000 signed witness affidavits attesting to this. There's video evidence backing it up. https://twitter.com/kelliwardaz/status/1335225504899739649 https://twitter.com/kelliwardaz/status/1335225504899739649
  - mmastrac 6y ago
    Yeah, the side that says the election was stolen is what? 1:50 for wins/losses? Weird how all the claims that are so strong magically don't appear in the actual suits where there are real consequences for lying. The supreme court is going to drop this case, like every other venue has. Stacking the court at the last minute with a conservative judge isn't going to magically save this losing case. Have you seen these witnesses? Have you seen their testimony? Have you seen the lawsuits that were submitted with typos on the first page? (EDIT: first line! [1]) This entire thing is a grift and a sham that will thankfully come to an end within a week. [1] https://archive.org/details/complaint-cj-pearson-v.-kemp-11.25.2020 https://archive.org/details/complaint-cj-pearson-v.-kemp-11....
    - djsumdog 6y ago
      I've watched a ton of the testimony and read several of the lawsuits. In PA alone, you had 1.7 million mail in ballots sent out and over 2 million received. There are completely insane numbers of cases where dead people have voted, where signatures were not verified at all, where people who moved voted, where women found others had voted under their maiden names. There is a real big problem with election irregularities. There was a lot going on. Whenever counting stops .. and takes days, that's a sign that someone is injecting ballots. That's what happens in corrupt nations in South/Central American and Africa and Russia. We are in very real danger of losing all confidence in the election process in America. If you don't see that, you are selectively ignoring a dangerous reality. The Supreme Court is going to take these cases, and if they see the evidence and declare these States violated the laws ... America is going to loose their collective shit and we'll see riots like you wouldn't believe from the left. If Biden gets certified ... you'll see massive violence from the far-left and the media will blame it on right wing conservatives. You should probably go read 1984 and then watch the news again.

smt88 6y ago

I generally agree with you, but I doubt YT did a significant amount of damage compared to all the mainstream news coverage of Trump himself. If Trump were a no-name fringe conspiracist, YT could be blamed for amplifying him. But he has Twitter, every news org, and his campaign's mailing list that (combined) are probably far more influential.