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Honestly, in engineering, it's usually a lot more likely that the manager doesn't understand the value of individual employees, and only sees an underling who h

Honestly, in engineering, it's usually a lot more likely that the manager doesn't understand the value of individual employees, and only sees an underling who has a strong sense of self-worth, but not enough knowledge to understand why.

h0l0cube 6y ago
The article was giving examples more along the lines of employees that had been promoted beyond their capacities (often the middle management), rather than someone at the bottom of the hierarchy who was misunderstood by middle management.
commandlinefan 6y ago
"I keep asking this guy to do things that he doesn't have enough information or authority to do and that nobody else could have done, and it still takes him weeks to get it done, he's incompetent!"
- watermelon59 6y ago
  Going through that right now and the anxiety is awful. I’m glad I have a therapist.
xyzelement 6y ago
This sounds like something an underperformer who thinks they are doing great would say :) I am kidding but my perspective (as someone who spent lots of time in both management and senior IC roles) is that thinking like this is harmful. Sure, there are terrible managers out there but 95% of the time, if your manager and you disagree on your performance, they are looking at it from a perspective that you're missing. I'll give you a few examples: - "My manager doesn't appreciate good engineering, just rushes me to get features in." - "No, your manager sees that you over-engineer non-critical parts of the system so you take way longer and your code is more complex than need be. He's been trying to help you make more pragmatic decisions but you're dug in on insisting he doesn't understand you, so you can't see that you can do something much better." - "My manager is upset that I deliver extra features for our business. I think he's a control freak and he doesn't understand how much I do." - "No, your manager sees that you keep doing one off favors for whoever asks, at the expense of slowing down the critical work that the team has committed to. Your manager works very hard to push back on the business and keep your roadmap clear, and you keep sabotaging it for the team." - "My manager doesn't appreciate how many bugs I fix in our system. He keeps saying something that I don't think high level enough but I just think he's an asshole." - "No, your manager recognizes that if all you do is fix bugs you will never rise in your level, and as someone who's considered a senior engineer, he needs you to step up and help the team figure out why they have so many bugs to begin with, and then work to solve those at root level. Also, your boss has a hard time fighting for a raise for you every year because his boss just says 'oh that guy just fixes bugs, no growth'" These situations are super common. In each one, the employee is better off trying to understand what the manager is seeing and why they are suggesting something different. But when the employee has their head up their ass and starts from the point of view "everything I am doing is right and my boss just doesn't understand" they are screwing themselves, likely the team, and are way more in the "oblivious underperformer" category than they realize.
- commandlinefan 6y ago
  > Your manager works very hard to push back on the business and keep your roadmap clear But folds like a wet napkin when anybody with any authority challenges him, leaving you with additional responsibilities after having wasted weeks delaying so that in addition to suddenly having twice as much work, you're also a few weeks behind on day one. Not all of us were born yesterday.
  - xyzelement 6y ago
    The fact that this may happen to someone somewhere isn't related to the feedback on one's performance as cited above.
- cbozeman 6y ago
  > Also, your boss has a hard time fighting for a raise for you every year because his boss just says 'oh that guy just fixes bugs, no growth'" You've spent a lot of time in senior roles, huh? Then you ought to know how valuable someone who can fix bugs, especially arcane ones, can be. > I am kidding No you weren't, you just don't want to be perceived as an asshole. This is one of the most basic and overused psychological tactics in history. Just say what you have to say and let the chips fall where they may. If you're wrong and the other person has a spine, they'll tell you you're wrong. If you're right and you're actually dealing with adults, they'll recognize it and accept it.
  - ironmagma 6y ago
    > you ought to know how valuable someone who can fix bugs, especially arcane ones, can be. This is very true. It's easy to ship new features; that's creating something from scratch, you get to make up the structure to suit your needs and introduce the tech debt that suits the project. Bugs show up in a constrained design space; to fix them, you have to operate within the architecture of the system that already exists, which can be much more difficult.
  - xyzelement 6y ago
    I like your 2nd point! On the first, I agree it's valuable in abstract, but not in the example I cited. There's room for the employee to grow and add more value to the team by rising above and figuring out why shit's so buggy to begin with (could be technical, process, human causes, whatever.) The manager is trying to tell them that. When they double down in their mind to "what 's most valuable is the thing I already happen to be doing, my manager is an ass" they are not doing the right thing for themselves or the team.
ActorNightly 6y ago
Engineering also has a disconnect between what managers think are good quality employees and what actually constitutes a good quality employee, so the hiring process is piss poor in most cases. Having worked across aerospace and software sectors, it seems like the higher ups usually get there through non technical merits and thus don't understand what it takes for a technical guy to be a good contributor.

h0l0cube 6y ago

The article was giving examples more along the lines of employees that had been promoted beyond their capacities (often the middle management), rather than someone at the bottom of the hierarchy who was misunderstood by middle management.

commandlinefan 6y ago

"I keep asking this guy to do things that he doesn't have enough information or authority to do and that nobody else could have done, and it still takes him weeks to get it done, he's incompetent!"

watermelon59 6y ago
Going through that right now and the anxiety is awful. I’m glad I have a therapist.

xyzelement 6y ago

This sounds like something an underperformer who thinks they are doing great would say :) I am kidding but my perspective (as someone who spent lots of time in both management and senior IC roles) is that thinking like this is harmful. Sure, there are terrible managers out there but 95% of the time, if your manager and you disagree on your performance, they are looking at it from a perspective that you're missing. I'll give you a few examples: - "My manager doesn't appreciate good engineering, just rushes me to get features in." - "No, your manager sees that you over-engineer non-critical parts of the system so you take way longer and your code is more complex than need be. He's been trying to help you make more pragmatic decisions but you're dug in on insisting he doesn't understand you, so you can't see that you can do something much better." - "My manager is upset that I deliver extra features for our business. I think he's a control freak and he doesn't understand how much I do." - "No, your manager sees that you keep doing one off favors for whoever asks, at the expense of slowing down the critical work that the team has committed to. Your manager works very hard to push back on the business and keep your roadmap clear, and you keep sabotaging it for the team." - "My manager doesn't appreciate how many bugs I fix in our system. He keeps saying something that I don't think high level enough but I just think he's an asshole." - "No, your manager recognizes that if all you do is fix bugs you will never rise in your level, and as someone who's considered a senior engineer, he needs you to step up and help the team figure out why they have so many bugs to begin with, and then work to solve those at root level. Also, your boss has a hard time fighting for a raise for you every year because his boss just says 'oh that guy just fixes bugs, no growth'" These situations are super common. In each one, the employee is better off trying to understand what the manager is seeing and why they are suggesting something different. But when the employee has their head up their ass and starts from the point of view "everything I am doing is right and my boss just doesn't understand" they are screwing themselves, likely the team, and are way more in the "oblivious underperformer" category than they realize.

commandlinefan 6y ago
> Your manager works very hard to push back on the business and keep your roadmap clear But folds like a wet napkin when anybody with any authority challenges him, leaving you with additional responsibilities after having wasted weeks delaying so that in addition to suddenly having twice as much work, you're also a few weeks behind on day one. Not all of us were born yesterday.
- xyzelement 6y ago
  The fact that this may happen to someone somewhere isn't related to the feedback on one's performance as cited above.
cbozeman 6y ago
> Also, your boss has a hard time fighting for a raise for you every year because his boss just says 'oh that guy just fixes bugs, no growth'" You've spent a lot of time in senior roles, huh? Then you ought to know how valuable someone who can fix bugs, especially arcane ones, can be. > I am kidding No you weren't, you just don't want to be perceived as an asshole. This is one of the most basic and overused psychological tactics in history. Just say what you have to say and let the chips fall where they may. If you're wrong and the other person has a spine, they'll tell you you're wrong. If you're right and you're actually dealing with adults, they'll recognize it and accept it.
- ironmagma 6y ago
  > you ought to know how valuable someone who can fix bugs, especially arcane ones, can be. This is very true. It's easy to ship new features; that's creating something from scratch, you get to make up the structure to suit your needs and introduce the tech debt that suits the project. Bugs show up in a constrained design space; to fix them, you have to operate within the architecture of the system that already exists, which can be much more difficult.
- xyzelement 6y ago
  I like your 2nd point! On the first, I agree it's valuable in abstract, but not in the example I cited. There's room for the employee to grow and add more value to the team by rising above and figuring out why shit's so buggy to begin with (could be technical, process, human causes, whatever.) The manager is trying to tell them that. When they double down in their mind to "what 's most valuable is the thing I already happen to be doing, my manager is an ass" they are not doing the right thing for themselves or the team.

ActorNightly 6y ago

Engineering also has a disconnect between what managers think are good quality employees and what actually constitutes a good quality employee, so the hiring process is piss poor in most cases. Having worked across aerospace and software sectors, it seems like the higher ups usually get there through non technical merits and thus don't understand what it takes for a technical guy to be a good contributor.