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I have someone like this on my team. The guy is a really good engineer and consultant, he is unorganized as hell and takes forever to log his billable time in t

I have someone like this on my team. The guy is a really good engineer and consultant, he is unorganized as hell and takes forever to log his billable time in the system. This causes billing problems regularly, requiring multiple hours of manual correction by myself (his manager) and has also resulted in clients receiving inaccurate invoices. I haven't been able to figure out how to handle it. I really don't want to have to micromanage him, because I feel like that would cut into his confidence. But he's also pretty terrible when it comes to an important aspect of the job.

aidenn0 6y ago
If he's that good of an engineer, have you considered hiring someone to sit down with him every so often to help him log the data?
- ptaffs 6y ago
  totally agree with this comment, help the person; we all bring different skills. Also, the person might just need a prompt or remind, someone telling them mid afternoon on Friday that a form is due before going home.
- anonfornoreason 6y ago
  Have a very similar problem in our organization, and our project manager stepped in to be that helpful friendly reminder for high performing engineers that often fail at the organizational side of things. Works out well, but you do need a person to play the role that could be called “babysitter” if you were a pessimistic person, and it takes a friendly work relationship and self recognition of (perfectly normal and common) deficiencies in organizational skills by the engineer. In our org, everyone is friendly and respects each other for the most part so these things are taken positively rather than negatively.
  - aidenn0 6y ago
    > it takes a friendly work relationship and self recognition of (perfectly normal and common) deficiencies in organizational skills by the engineer. Yes, if done poorly it can be shaming. Ultimately it comes down to "yes you suck at organization. However you are so good at X that the company will make more money doing it this way than by firing you; that's a win-win." Specialization isn't just for insects
Loughla 6y ago
This one feels like the article actually addresses it perfectly. I have had an issue with this literal problem. I had a 'consultant' we would farm out to other organizations. She was phenomenal with work quality, but her organization was garbage, and her billing was always late/inaccurate. Here's what I did (and what the article seems to agree with): 1. Be clear about your expectations. Have standardized forms, and clear deadlines the two of you discuss. Also discuss and agree to consequences for not meeting expectations for timeline and accuracy. You WILL have to explain why this is important; to most of these folks who are rockstars, the work is important, not the follow-up. 2. Work through the documentation process, and find the pinch points. How can you help with that (provide resources). 3. If you have set consequences, follow through on them, or change the process to suit the person if they are valuable enough. In my experience, being bad at ancillary things isn't malicious. It's either not a priority, or it has never been called out. Super high performers won't understand why it matters (especially in the tech sector where 'the work' is all that matters). It's up to you to translate why it's important, and what the impact is for the team. Be open to solutions you hadn't though of. Good luck.
- jasonpeacock 6y ago
  This is so true for many things in life, including relationships and parenting :)
  - gnat 6y ago
    I found that the things that worked for me as a parent also worked for me as a manager: treat them as adults, ask questions rather than assume/provide answers, include them in finding solutions to problem rather than dictate, and so on.
- enraged_camel 6y ago
  He understands why it matters because he used to run his own one-man show before we "acqui-hired" him. But whenever I notice that he doesn't have his time logged in the system, he says "yeah I've been slammed all day" or something similar and promises to get it done soon... and then doesn't. And he genuinely is getting a lot of work done so there's no foul play or anything. The issue isn't just logging his time either - he's also not great at taking detailed notes, writing accurate scope of work documents, etc. He's very good with clients, has a lot of knowledge and experience with the tech stack, but is a "cowboy engineer" if that makes sense. The way I'm thinking about this is that everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, but for this one person, said weaknesses are directly affecting the company bottom line so they are impossible to ignore. :)
BariumBlue 6y ago
Don't be afraid of feedback, and don't be afraid to criticize. Just ask for a certain time to do feedback, prepare a list of things to talk about, and then in a private space candidly talk about them. It's one of the things that the Air Force expects its leaders to do, and I've always liked that. I've found people to generally be surprisingly willing to discuss topics on both sides of a feedback session. Usual things to talk about would be expectations of what they'll do at work and all the related tasks, their work performance & what's helping and hindering it, how they fit in to their work-center both professionally and emotionally (do they feel detached, are they getting along with folks?), if there are recommendations from them for the work-center and how to improve the system. Depending, it can take 20 min or go on for hours. I've found feedback sessions like these to be very useful and productive though, and less awkward than some people assume.
phaedrus 6y ago
I could be projecting, but it sounds like your team member has ADHD. My work set up an automated system that emails people between 9-10am if they forgot to log their time the day before. You get dinged if and only if it gets to the second reminder at 11. As someone with ADHD I only distinguish two times: now and not now. Having a reminder that means "do it now" took me overnight from terrible timesheet compliance to near perfect. It's not an automated reminder that happens every day at that time like an alarm clock. That would get tuned out / filtered out very quickly. The key is it's a novel message that I only see if I screwed up by forgetting the day before. And it's easy to forget because the ADHD brain is like a CPU with only one register, and the register spill circuit for service interrupt / return from interrupt is faulty. In order to impersonate a functioning human being I tie certain things I need to do each day (like filling out my timesheet) to certain other events during the day. But if the routine gets broken or I get interrupted in the midst of doing the thing - the mind state that held what I was supposed to be doing is just gone.
- kayodelycaon 6y ago
  It’s also important to mention ADHD is considered a disability in the US.
efficax 6y ago
When I worked as a consultant tracking billable hours was the hardest part of my job, far harder than any engineering problem, and the thing I hated even more than bad clients who couldn't make up their minds about requirements. For the last year I just started making up the hours and nobody seemed to notice! Thankfully I moved on to a salaried position at a product company and I don't have to micromanage myself anymore. I don't have a point here: time tracking sucks, that's all
- toyg 6y ago
  I agree tremendously, same experience. It’s depressing that it’s 2020 and what seems like a trivial problem is still fundamentally unresolved. It’s the sort of thing Siri or Assistant should be designed for, but are not.
mobjack 6y ago
As someone with a similar personality, I doubt the employee has any delusions about their organization abilities. They probably just don't like that aspect of their job and don't think it is that important. Approach it by saying I know you don't like doing it, but it is important to do. Mention the consequences of not doing it and how you spent hours fixing them. You might need to micromanage that one part of the job. Sometimes people need reminders on what to do. Also mention that they a strong engineer otherwise and this is just one thing they need to work on. Don't expect them to be super organized, but they need to do the minimum when it comes to logging time.
kayodelycaon 6y ago
Having been on the receiving end of this, my manager and I sat down to work on the problem together. “More diligence” is not a good solution to recurring problems especially one as fundamental as organization. (Especially mine, as I have a disability in this area.) There are various solutions to for organization. One I’ve used is taking the beginning of each day to write down what I did the day before. (End of the day failed horribly.) It gets me thoughts in order so I deal with high friction tasks like paperwork. The issue could also be the perceived difficulty of software used to log hours. My brain hates using ticketing software because it’s a hassle to get everything entered properly. Most software systems I’ve used fight the way my brain works. It forces me to categorize things before I’m ready to categorize them. As a result, those tasks make me anxious, which means I tend to avoid them. If I “just do it”, it takes all of my energy for the day. This is why I have a system for getting the organization done outside the system before tackling a poor UI.
Mauricebranagh 6y ago
That also means you have a overly complex and crufty time recording system
poulsbohemian 6y ago
Can you get him a scribe? I've done projects over the years where I'm the "expert", and on those projects there are a lot of organizational details (like tracking billable hours) where I have brought in or asked for a project manager to be brought in, not to "manage" me or the project per se, but to take care of details like that so that I can focus on the work itself instead. Has worked well for me.

aidenn0 6y ago

If he's that good of an engineer, have you considered hiring someone to sit down with him every so often to help him log the data?

ptaffs 6y ago
totally agree with this comment, help the person; we all bring different skills. Also, the person might just need a prompt or remind, someone telling them mid afternoon on Friday that a form is due before going home.
anonfornoreason 6y ago
Have a very similar problem in our organization, and our project manager stepped in to be that helpful friendly reminder for high performing engineers that often fail at the organizational side of things. Works out well, but you do need a person to play the role that could be called “babysitter” if you were a pessimistic person, and it takes a friendly work relationship and self recognition of (perfectly normal and common) deficiencies in organizational skills by the engineer. In our org, everyone is friendly and respects each other for the most part so these things are taken positively rather than negatively.
- aidenn0 6y ago
  > it takes a friendly work relationship and self recognition of (perfectly normal and common) deficiencies in organizational skills by the engineer. Yes, if done poorly it can be shaming. Ultimately it comes down to "yes you suck at organization. However you are so good at X that the company will make more money doing it this way than by firing you; that's a win-win." Specialization isn't just for insects

Loughla 6y ago

This one feels like the article actually addresses it perfectly. I have had an issue with this literal problem. I had a 'consultant' we would farm out to other organizations. She was phenomenal with work quality, but her organization was garbage, and her billing was always late/inaccurate. Here's what I did (and what the article seems to agree with): 1. Be clear about your expectations. Have standardized forms, and clear deadlines the two of you discuss. Also discuss and agree to consequences for not meeting expectations for timeline and accuracy. You WILL have to explain why this is important; to most of these folks who are rockstars, the work is important, not the follow-up. 2. Work through the documentation process, and find the pinch points. How can you help with that (provide resources). 3. If you have set consequences, follow through on them, or change the process to suit the person if they are valuable enough. In my experience, being bad at ancillary things isn't malicious. It's either not a priority, or it has never been called out. Super high performers won't understand why it matters (especially in the tech sector where 'the work' is all that matters). It's up to you to translate why it's important, and what the impact is for the team. Be open to solutions you hadn't though of. Good luck.

jasonpeacock 6y ago
This is so true for many things in life, including relationships and parenting :)
- gnat 6y ago
  I found that the things that worked for me as a parent also worked for me as a manager: treat them as adults, ask questions rather than assume/provide answers, include them in finding solutions to problem rather than dictate, and so on.
enraged_camel 6y ago
He understands why it matters because he used to run his own one-man show before we "acqui-hired" him. But whenever I notice that he doesn't have his time logged in the system, he says "yeah I've been slammed all day" or something similar and promises to get it done soon... and then doesn't. And he genuinely is getting a lot of work done so there's no foul play or anything. The issue isn't just logging his time either - he's also not great at taking detailed notes, writing accurate scope of work documents, etc. He's very good with clients, has a lot of knowledge and experience with the tech stack, but is a "cowboy engineer" if that makes sense. The way I'm thinking about this is that everyone has different strengths and weaknesses, but for this one person, said weaknesses are directly affecting the company bottom line so they are impossible to ignore. :)

BariumBlue 6y ago

Don't be afraid of feedback, and don't be afraid to criticize. Just ask for a certain time to do feedback, prepare a list of things to talk about, and then in a private space candidly talk about them. It's one of the things that the Air Force expects its leaders to do, and I've always liked that. I've found people to generally be surprisingly willing to discuss topics on both sides of a feedback session. Usual things to talk about would be expectations of what they'll do at work and all the related tasks, their work performance & what's helping and hindering it, how they fit in to their work-center both professionally and emotionally (do they feel detached, are they getting along with folks?), if there are recommendations from them for the work-center and how to improve the system. Depending, it can take 20 min or go on for hours. I've found feedback sessions like these to be very useful and productive though, and less awkward than some people assume.

phaedrus 6y ago

I could be projecting, but it sounds like your team member has ADHD. My work set up an automated system that emails people between 9-10am if they forgot to log their time the day before. You get dinged if and only if it gets to the second reminder at 11. As someone with ADHD I only distinguish two times: now and not now. Having a reminder that means "do it now" took me overnight from terrible timesheet compliance to near perfect. It's not an automated reminder that happens every day at that time like an alarm clock. That would get tuned out / filtered out very quickly. The key is it's a novel message that I only see if I screwed up by forgetting the day before. And it's easy to forget because the ADHD brain is like a CPU with only one register, and the register spill circuit for service interrupt / return from interrupt is faulty. In order to impersonate a functioning human being I tie certain things I need to do each day (like filling out my timesheet) to certain other events during the day. But if the routine gets broken or I get interrupted in the midst of doing the thing - the mind state that held what I was supposed to be doing is just gone.

kayodelycaon 6y ago
It’s also important to mention ADHD is considered a disability in the US.

efficax 6y ago

When I worked as a consultant tracking billable hours was the hardest part of my job, far harder than any engineering problem, and the thing I hated even more than bad clients who couldn't make up their minds about requirements. For the last year I just started making up the hours and nobody seemed to notice! Thankfully I moved on to a salaried position at a product company and I don't have to micromanage myself anymore. I don't have a point here: time tracking sucks, that's all

toyg 6y ago
I agree tremendously, same experience. It’s depressing that it’s 2020 and what seems like a trivial problem is still fundamentally unresolved. It’s the sort of thing Siri or Assistant should be designed for, but are not.

mobjack 6y ago

As someone with a similar personality, I doubt the employee has any delusions about their organization abilities. They probably just don't like that aspect of their job and don't think it is that important. Approach it by saying I know you don't like doing it, but it is important to do. Mention the consequences of not doing it and how you spent hours fixing them. You might need to micromanage that one part of the job. Sometimes people need reminders on what to do. Also mention that they a strong engineer otherwise and this is just one thing they need to work on. Don't expect them to be super organized, but they need to do the minimum when it comes to logging time.

kayodelycaon 6y ago

Having been on the receiving end of this, my manager and I sat down to work on the problem together. “More diligence” is not a good solution to recurring problems especially one as fundamental as organization. (Especially mine, as I have a disability in this area.) There are various solutions to for organization. One I’ve used is taking the beginning of each day to write down what I did the day before. (End of the day failed horribly.) It gets me thoughts in order so I deal with high friction tasks like paperwork. The issue could also be the perceived difficulty of software used to log hours. My brain hates using ticketing software because it’s a hassle to get everything entered properly. Most software systems I’ve used fight the way my brain works. It forces me to categorize things before I’m ready to categorize them. As a result, those tasks make me anxious, which means I tend to avoid them. If I “just do it”, it takes all of my energy for the day. This is why I have a system for getting the organization done outside the system before tackling a poor UI.

Mauricebranagh 6y ago

That also means you have a overly complex and crufty time recording system

poulsbohemian 6y ago

Can you get him a scribe? I've done projects over the years where I'm the "expert", and on those projects there are a lot of organizational details (like tracking billable hours) where I have brought in or asked for a project manager to be brought in, not to "manage" me or the project per se, but to take care of details like that so that I can focus on the work itself instead. Has worked well for me.