21 ms·

Ah, right, its still a cell from an animal, as is a tire using a cell from an animal, so I guess someone who doesn't eat meat derived from stem cells also walks

by Fnoord 6y ago

Ah, right, its still a cell from an animal, as is a tire using a cell from an animal, so I guess someone who doesn't eat meat derived from stem cells also walks a lot. The amount of suffering the animal who's cell is used has to endure to grow the lab owned meat is in no relation to the amount of suffering a cow who is being milked has to endure. Therefore, I consider lab meat vegan in spirit, just like gelatin (e.g. not one pig less dies if you eat some licorice with gelatin in it). Meanwhile, vegans eat avocados, which have a massive impact on the environment, and there's barely anyone in the vegan community who opposes that cause its aligned to the animal suffering dogma, and its almost like a cult, too.

doublerabbit 6y ago
> Meanwhile, vegans eat avocados, which have a massive impact on the environment, This doesn't lay true, Those who are not vegan also eat avocados too. And likely at a higher rate then those who are if your going to throw that remark. Humans are a massive impact on this planet and wasteful resource. Regarding to tires it's about time that changes as well. Rubber is such a destructive material to the environment and very toxic. However as far as I know animals are not being bred and slaughtered deliberately to be made in to tires.
- Fnoord 6y ago
  Tires are made from pigs. Recommended read on the matter: PIG 05049 by Christien Meindertsma [1] [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3389366-pig-05049 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3389366-pig-05049
  - doublerabbit 6y ago
    I'm aware. Which is why I stated that it's about time we changed that too. No, I don't own a car. Yes I do walk. Yes I do drive, and yes I do my best to protect the environment. I even have my own litter picker and go out every-night picking up trash off the streets from those of the likes of you dropping it. Animal slaughter for anything is wrong. Animals have long-been put as second class and that's what needs to change. Why?, why not. And your a prime example of someone who's first class who clearly shows; you don't really care. That's what needs to change in the world. You. How much meat do you eat? Cut that amount in half. You don't need to stop but with demand so stupidly high because of people demanding it for convenience is what's wrong with this planet. Having meat for special occasions, I have no issue with that. If the animal is your own cattle and used for dinner, okay if the animal hasn't been abused. Cows need to be milked otherwise they get ill. That's fine. The issues I have is that when an animal are bred deliberately, tortured and inhumanely treated for your self-indulgence. Sold for greed and profit or used as painful experiments (cosmetics) that's where it's wrong. I'm a environmentalist activist which vegan is only just a sub-category of. Being all-out honest I don't even like vegan products, they taste crap. Cheese is icky, their butter is meh. It has a long-way to go before it can come to anything. But I still hold to my views of it's time to stop eating animals, using animals for ones selflessness. Why are we still using animals, that's a question which no one can ever seem to answer.
    - Fnoord 6y ago
      There was research about which diet is most environment-friendly. It wasn't veganism. It was a variant of vegetarianism. As an example, chicken are animal welfare unfriendly, whereas they're environment friendly. As are insects; a very cheap and reliable resource of protein. The interests of an animal welfare activist are not always aligned with the interests of an environmentalist activist (I don't even like the term 'activist' TBH, as it implies the others do nothing). I also have a litter picker, and re: "the likes of you": no, I don't consciously throw litter away on the street. I even keep plastic with me to recycle at home. I don't follow any dogma, except I try to reduce my impact. > That's what needs to change in the world. You. How much meat do you eat? Cut that amount in half. You preach to the converted. I barely eat meat as it is, I often eat vegan, too. But what I am not going to care about is the examples I mentioned (another one is insect protein as insects don't have a CNS) throughout this thread, as their impact on animal welfare is very minimal. Just having one person eating one time a week no meat is going to have more impact. You said vegans eat less avocado than non-vegans. I'm confident statistical analysis on that will prove otherwise. > Animal slaughter for anything is wrong. Animals have long-been put as second class and that's what needs to change. Why?, why not. And your a prime example of someone who's first class who clearly shows; you don't really care. I actually do care but I try to be realistic and practical. My approach is long-term. Most people eat meat, and they're not going to change that. They like the taste, they like the structure. If lab meat is a 1:1 copy of that, and it can be priced competitively, there's no more need for the bio industry. Its going to be a massive blow for animal suffering, world-wide. More impact than all of the people who are vegan combined. > Why are we still using animals, that's a question which no one can ever seem to answer. That's akin to the question why we still use fossil fuels. Because it has its advantages. For example, as you put: > Being all-out honest I don't even like vegan products, they taste crap. I actually like a lot of the vegetarian and vegan products, but they're generally not priced competitively, and the taste isn't 1:1 (though there's been a lot of improvement last 20 years -- 10 of which I was a full-time vegetarian, and 2 of which I was a full-time vegan).
      - doublerabbit 6y ago
        > I also have a litter picker, and re: "the likes of you": no, I don't consciously throw litter away on the street. I even keep plastic with me to recycle at home. While I've not read the book you linked but I saw at as attempt of as strike /for/ meat. My assumption is that this is the internet those who use social media enjoy being vindictive on the basis there is more evil then good on the internet. It enlightens me that your someone who does care to which I will take back my remark and apologize. Sorry. I too don't like the word activist. It has a horrible concatenation to it. I normally just stick around with environmentalist. > You said vegans eat less avocado than non-vegans. I go on my view of products used in commercial food. Guacamole and the likes are all unnecessarily products sold to the supermarket consumer I would view as high amount. Personally I dislike the taste. > I actually do care but I try to be realistic and practical. My approach is long-term. Most people eat meat, and they're not going to change that. They like the taste, they like the structure. If lab meat is a 1:1 copy of that, and it can be priced competitively, there's no more need for the bio industry. Its going to be a massive blow for animal suffering, world-wide. More impact than all of the people who are vegan combined. I agree wholly and I work on the same basis. I can't convert someone, why should they listen to me? And I am not someone who is for preaching. I'll express my concerns above allowing the other person to take and think. I of-course listen and understand those to who do eat meat. And those who do, I won't shame, life is made of choices, you do you. But for me, I don't partly because my moral compass says no, like for the reasons above. I don't eat sugar either as that again is an destructive product of the devil. > That's akin to the question why we still use fossil fuels. Because it has its advantages. Money is a large factor but I don't have the time to debate, but I would argue that the advantages given are themselves disadvantages. I would argue that the con's outweighs the pro's and that it's destructive all around. From manufacturing to usage. Thank you for the civil discussion :).
saagarjha 6y ago
You could have made your point just as well without attacking the commenter and their life choices.
- Fnoord 6y ago
  Heh, I believe I put it rather mildly. I'm a former vegan, for me veganism is almost like a cult. The amount of flak you receive when you don't adhere to the (ridiculous) standards is unreal, and the hypocrisy is both very real as well as harmful.
mrob 6y ago
>not one pig less dies if you eat some licorice with gelatin in it Do gelatin manufacturers receive their animal parts for free? If they pay for them then it increases the value of animal farming, which will make some otherwise marginally unprofitable animals profitable.
- Fnoord 6y ago
  From what I gathered some animal by-products (such as whey and gelatin) are abundant, practically waste products, and need to be destroyed. Therefore they get sold for ridiculously low prices (dump prices) or those who are interested even get paid for picking it up. If you want to make an impact, just eating one piece of meat less a week has more impact than quitting eating whatever amount of licorice with gelatin it is you are eating. Another irrelevant one is rennet. Yes, a calve gets slaughtered for rennet, but calves already get slaughtered and one calve stomach is used for, say, 100.000 cheeses. It makes no impact as a vegetarian to therefore not eat cheese made with rennet. Just like it makes no sense to avoid lab meat because an animal suffered from it. At one point, it gets ridiculous, and its harmful for the cause (be it animal welfare, environmental welfare, or personal health).

by Fnoord 6y ago

doublerabbit 6y ago

> Meanwhile, vegans eat avocados, which have a massive impact on the environment, This doesn't lay true, Those who are not vegan also eat avocados too. And likely at a higher rate then those who are if your going to throw that remark. Humans are a massive impact on this planet and wasteful resource. Regarding to tires it's about time that changes as well. Rubber is such a destructive material to the environment and very toxic. However as far as I know animals are not being bred and slaughtered deliberately to be made in to tires.

Fnoord 6y ago
Tires are made from pigs. Recommended read on the matter: PIG 05049 by Christien Meindertsma [1] [1] https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3389366-pig-05049 https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3389366-pig-05049
- doublerabbit 6y ago
  I'm aware. Which is why I stated that it's about time we changed that too. No, I don't own a car. Yes I do walk. Yes I do drive, and yes I do my best to protect the environment. I even have my own litter picker and go out every-night picking up trash off the streets from those of the likes of you dropping it. Animal slaughter for anything is wrong. Animals have long-been put as second class and that's what needs to change. Why?, why not. And your a prime example of someone who's first class who clearly shows; you don't really care. That's what needs to change in the world. You. How much meat do you eat? Cut that amount in half. You don't need to stop but with demand so stupidly high because of people demanding it for convenience is what's wrong with this planet. Having meat for special occasions, I have no issue with that. If the animal is your own cattle and used for dinner, okay if the animal hasn't been abused. Cows need to be milked otherwise they get ill. That's fine. The issues I have is that when an animal are bred deliberately, tortured and inhumanely treated for your self-indulgence. Sold for greed and profit or used as painful experiments (cosmetics) that's where it's wrong. I'm a environmentalist activist which vegan is only just a sub-category of. Being all-out honest I don't even like vegan products, they taste crap. Cheese is icky, their butter is meh. It has a long-way to go before it can come to anything. But I still hold to my views of it's time to stop eating animals, using animals for ones selflessness. Why are we still using animals, that's a question which no one can ever seem to answer.
  - Fnoord 6y ago
    There was research about which diet is most environment-friendly. It wasn't veganism. It was a variant of vegetarianism. As an example, chicken are animal welfare unfriendly, whereas they're environment friendly. As are insects; a very cheap and reliable resource of protein. The interests of an animal welfare activist are not always aligned with the interests of an environmentalist activist (I don't even like the term 'activist' TBH, as it implies the others do nothing). I also have a litter picker, and re: "the likes of you": no, I don't consciously throw litter away on the street. I even keep plastic with me to recycle at home. I don't follow any dogma, except I try to reduce my impact. > That's what needs to change in the world. You. How much meat do you eat? Cut that amount in half. You preach to the converted. I barely eat meat as it is, I often eat vegan, too. But what I am not going to care about is the examples I mentioned (another one is insect protein as insects don't have a CNS) throughout this thread, as their impact on animal welfare is very minimal. Just having one person eating one time a week no meat is going to have more impact. You said vegans eat less avocado than non-vegans. I'm confident statistical analysis on that will prove otherwise. > Animal slaughter for anything is wrong. Animals have long-been put as second class and that's what needs to change. Why?, why not. And your a prime example of someone who's first class who clearly shows; you don't really care. I actually do care but I try to be realistic and practical. My approach is long-term. Most people eat meat, and they're not going to change that. They like the taste, they like the structure. If lab meat is a 1:1 copy of that, and it can be priced competitively, there's no more need for the bio industry. Its going to be a massive blow for animal suffering, world-wide. More impact than all of the people who are vegan combined. > Why are we still using animals, that's a question which no one can ever seem to answer. That's akin to the question why we still use fossil fuels. Because it has its advantages. For example, as you put: > Being all-out honest I don't even like vegan products, they taste crap. I actually like a lot of the vegetarian and vegan products, but they're generally not priced competitively, and the taste isn't 1:1 (though there's been a lot of improvement last 20 years -- 10 of which I was a full-time vegetarian, and 2 of which I was a full-time vegan).
    - doublerabbit 6y ago
      > I also have a litter picker, and re: "the likes of you": no, I don't consciously throw litter away on the street. I even keep plastic with me to recycle at home. While I've not read the book you linked but I saw at as attempt of as strike /for/ meat. My assumption is that this is the internet those who use social media enjoy being vindictive on the basis there is more evil then good on the internet. It enlightens me that your someone who does care to which I will take back my remark and apologize. Sorry. I too don't like the word activist. It has a horrible concatenation to it. I normally just stick around with environmentalist. > You said vegans eat less avocado than non-vegans. I go on my view of products used in commercial food. Guacamole and the likes are all unnecessarily products sold to the supermarket consumer I would view as high amount. Personally I dislike the taste. > I actually do care but I try to be realistic and practical. My approach is long-term. Most people eat meat, and they're not going to change that. They like the taste, they like the structure. If lab meat is a 1:1 copy of that, and it can be priced competitively, there's no more need for the bio industry. Its going to be a massive blow for animal suffering, world-wide. More impact than all of the people who are vegan combined. I agree wholly and I work on the same basis. I can't convert someone, why should they listen to me? And I am not someone who is for preaching. I'll express my concerns above allowing the other person to take and think. I of-course listen and understand those to who do eat meat. And those who do, I won't shame, life is made of choices, you do you. But for me, I don't partly because my moral compass says no, like for the reasons above. I don't eat sugar either as that again is an destructive product of the devil. > That's akin to the question why we still use fossil fuels. Because it has its advantages. Money is a large factor but I don't have the time to debate, but I would argue that the advantages given are themselves disadvantages. I would argue that the con's outweighs the pro's and that it's destructive all around. From manufacturing to usage. Thank you for the civil discussion :).

saagarjha 6y ago

You could have made your point just as well without attacking the commenter and their life choices.

Fnoord 6y ago
Heh, I believe I put it rather mildly. I'm a former vegan, for me veganism is almost like a cult. The amount of flak you receive when you don't adhere to the (ridiculous) standards is unreal, and the hypocrisy is both very real as well as harmful.

mrob 6y ago

>not one pig less dies if you eat some licorice with gelatin in it Do gelatin manufacturers receive their animal parts for free? If they pay for them then it increases the value of animal farming, which will make some otherwise marginally unprofitable animals profitable.

Fnoord 6y ago
From what I gathered some animal by-products (such as whey and gelatin) are abundant, practically waste products, and need to be destroyed. Therefore they get sold for ridiculously low prices (dump prices) or those who are interested even get paid for picking it up. If you want to make an impact, just eating one piece of meat less a week has more impact than quitting eating whatever amount of licorice with gelatin it is you are eating. Another irrelevant one is rennet. Yes, a calve gets slaughtered for rennet, but calves already get slaughtered and one calve stomach is used for, say, 100.000 cheeses. It makes no impact as a vegetarian to therefore not eat cheese made with rennet. Just like it makes no sense to avoid lab meat because an animal suffered from it. At one point, it gets ridiculous, and its harmful for the cause (be it animal welfare, environmental welfare, or personal health).