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I don't think that's really true. My understanding from talking to people there is that Java funding was increased for so many years despite losing money becaus

I don't think that's really true. My understanding from talking to people there is that Java funding was increased for so many years despite losing money because Larry Ellison just thought it was cool tech and they use it a lot. Likewise, GraalVM is so well funded largely because it's cool and Oracle doesn't have many cool R&D projects. It's not clear it's all that commercially driven when you observe that so much of it is open source. That said, their supported versions of Java and Graal are expensive. Some things never change.

bayindirh 6y ago
> I don't think that's really true. My understanding from talking to people there is that Java funding was increased for so many years despite losing money because Larry Ellison just thought it was cool tech and they use it a lot. Likewise, GraalVM is so well funded largely because it's cool and Oracle doesn't have many cool R&D projects. It's not clear it's all that commercially driven when you observe that so much of it is open source. I just hope that it's true. We really need that.
pjmlp 6y ago
Oracle has been in the bed with IBM and Sun regarding Java since version 1.0. The supported versions of Java and Graal are the same price as any other enterprise product. They put the effort, someone has to pay for it. Where are the free beer JIT, AOT and GC implementations for free beer languages that outperform Java?
- bayindirh 6y ago
  Do we need to have free beer JIT, AOT and GC implementations for every language? If I understood it correctly, a programming language has some foundational design decisions (including its memory and execution model) to attack a particular set of problems?
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    What we need are top level JIT, AOT and GC implementations, anything else is just going backwards. The people capable of achieving that, naturally have bills to pay.
    - bayindirh 6y ago
      > What we need are top level JIT, AOT and GC implementations, anything else is just going backwards. Not always. As I aforementioned in another thread, we also need C/C++, Python, Perl, etc. as is since they fill different roles and attack different problems. I've written Java, C, C++, Python, Perl, PHP. Had to abuse some of them to fit roles which they're not designed to do. At the end of the day, these languages satisfy different needs and solve different problems in different scenarios. Java wouldn't be able to do all of them. Neither C++, nor Python. As I said, you may like Java but, it's not the king of every programming language. No programming language is king of everything BTW.
      - pjmlp 6y ago
        C and C++ development is sponsored by the corporations of Apple, Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Google.... PHP was mostly driven by Facebook needs. None of them is any different from Oracle. And apparently you fail to understand who has contributed to state of the art implemetnations of AOT compilation to toolchains like LLVM, hint the companies that HN loves to hate, it weren't weekend and late night coders.
        bayindirh 6y ago
        > And apparently you fail to understand who has contributed to state of the art implemetnations of AOT compilation to toolchains like LLVM, hint the companies that HN loves to hate, it weren't weekend and late night coders. I'm pretty aware that nearly all clang/LLVM development is driven by apple. On the other hand you apparently fail to understand my point of view about Oracle and Java ecosystem. I'm neither against Oracle nor Oracle's development of Java or Java's development in the interest of Oracle mainly. I'm only against Oracle's motives about making Java a walled garden and usage of this programming language to extort license money from others. On the other hand, I personally use OpenJDK runtime countless times every day, knowingly or unknowingly. I'm written Java in the past and have no reservations or bad things to say about it. Contrary to your view about other programming languages, I'm pretty neutral against every other programming language. > C and C++ development is sponsored by the corporations of Apple, Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Google.... PHP was mostly driven by Facebook needs. There are no news for me here either. Development of a programming language or any tool with input from its users is a non-issue. Also, every user has needs from the products they use, so they will provide feedback and communicate their needs. The difference, I want to highlight and highlight again, none of these corporations can use C++ or PHP or Python to extort license money from their customers. PHP is owned by Zend, so they may try. C++ is almost public domain now. LLVM is under apache license. Either way I use GCC which is GPL. Python is 20+ years old and is also almost public domain. Contributing to a tool to get what you want is different from owning a tool and to use it to extort licensing money is different. Either way, as aforementioned, I have nothing against Java, contrary to your views against other programming languages.

bayindirh 6y ago

> I don't think that's really true. My understanding from talking to people there is that Java funding was increased for so many years despite losing money because Larry Ellison just thought it was cool tech and they use it a lot. Likewise, GraalVM is so well funded largely because it's cool and Oracle doesn't have many cool R&D projects. It's not clear it's all that commercially driven when you observe that so much of it is open source. I just hope that it's true. We really need that.

pjmlp 6y ago

Oracle has been in the bed with IBM and Sun regarding Java since version 1.0. The supported versions of Java and Graal are the same price as any other enterprise product. They put the effort, someone has to pay for it. Where are the free beer JIT, AOT and GC implementations for free beer languages that outperform Java?

bayindirh 6y ago
Do we need to have free beer JIT, AOT and GC implementations for every language? If I understood it correctly, a programming language has some foundational design decisions (including its memory and execution model) to attack a particular set of problems?
- pjmlp 6y ago
  What we need are top level JIT, AOT and GC implementations, anything else is just going backwards. The people capable of achieving that, naturally have bills to pay.
  - bayindirh 6y ago
    > What we need are top level JIT, AOT and GC implementations, anything else is just going backwards. Not always. As I aforementioned in another thread, we also need C/C++, Python, Perl, etc. as is since they fill different roles and attack different problems. I've written Java, C, C++, Python, Perl, PHP. Had to abuse some of them to fit roles which they're not designed to do. At the end of the day, these languages satisfy different needs and solve different problems in different scenarios. Java wouldn't be able to do all of them. Neither C++, nor Python. As I said, you may like Java but, it's not the king of every programming language. No programming language is king of everything BTW.
    - pjmlp 6y ago
      C and C++ development is sponsored by the corporations of Apple, Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Google.... PHP was mostly driven by Facebook needs. None of them is any different from Oracle. And apparently you fail to understand who has contributed to state of the art implemetnations of AOT compilation to toolchains like LLVM, hint the companies that HN loves to hate, it weren't weekend and late night coders.
      - bayindirh 6y ago
        > And apparently you fail to understand who has contributed to state of the art implemetnations of AOT compilation to toolchains like LLVM, hint the companies that HN loves to hate, it weren't weekend and late night coders. I'm pretty aware that nearly all clang/LLVM development is driven by apple. On the other hand you apparently fail to understand my point of view about Oracle and Java ecosystem. I'm neither against Oracle nor Oracle's development of Java or Java's development in the interest of Oracle mainly. I'm only against Oracle's motives about making Java a walled garden and usage of this programming language to extort license money from others. On the other hand, I personally use OpenJDK runtime countless times every day, knowingly or unknowingly. I'm written Java in the past and have no reservations or bad things to say about it. Contrary to your view about other programming languages, I'm pretty neutral against every other programming language. > C and C++ development is sponsored by the corporations of Apple, Microsoft, IBM, Oracle, Google.... PHP was mostly driven by Facebook needs. There are no news for me here either. Development of a programming language or any tool with input from its users is a non-issue. Also, every user has needs from the products they use, so they will provide feedback and communicate their needs. The difference, I want to highlight and highlight again, none of these corporations can use C++ or PHP or Python to extort license money from their customers. PHP is owned by Zend, so they may try. C++ is almost public domain now. LLVM is under apache license. Either way I use GCC which is GPL. Python is 20+ years old and is also almost public domain. Contributing to a tool to get what you want is different from owning a tool and to use it to extort licensing money is different. Either way, as aforementioned, I have nothing against Java, contrary to your views against other programming languages.