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If only HN had a gold star type thing, instead you'll have to settle for being included in my notes. > having greater optionality in your actions is likely to

If only HN had a gold star type thing, instead you'll have to settle for being included in my notes. > having greater optionality in your actions is likely to lead to a more optimal path towards your goal. One of the frequent issues I hit with other people is that they will "block off" a choice before actually evaluating it. They will, for instance, refuse to bring up that they have another job offer in a salary negotiation because they feel it's "unfair". One case of this was a friend who doesn't want to leave a job where they're being made to work 12+ hour days because "they need me and the company might fail if I leave". It feels they can't even dive into and tease apart these choices and really evaluate them ("Is it fair for me to bring up this other job offer in this negotiation?"), and they also struggle to consider what the other side is capable of (eg negotiating with multiple candidates at the same time). Unfortunately it's not until these people get bitten a few times that they start to develop a stronger sense of being able to navigate these choice problems.

grugagag 6y ago
> "they need me and the company might fail if I leave" Isn't this also some kind of hero mentality that these people enjoy being part of? Eventually they realize it doesn't pay bills but while it does make them feel great and that's the temporary payoff. We all learn from our mistakes. It might also be genuine kinship with their coworkers and this is exactly where the leadership of the said company is extremely smart and evil at the same time: they know how to attract intelligent benevolent nerds to exploit and they know that they'll eventually smarten up and leave but the world is large, There's a sucker born every minute All in all, the revolving door and the high churn rate won't make a big dent for the company.
- cutemonster 6y ago
  What about nurses working 12 hour shifts, helping people survive covid-19 -- now they are needed, or people will die. But I never heard about them getting any special extra compensation for working that much and also a bit risking their life. Also, nurses are often women. Are they light pattern people getting exploited? Why won't society raise their salaries, so more people will work as nurses or at least not resign -- so they won't need to work 12 h shifts > it does make them feel great and that's the temporary payoff. I think in the cases of nurses it can be the opposite: that they'd feel guilt if they quit
  - floydnoel 6y ago
    > I never heard about them getting any special extra compensation for working that much and also a bit risking their life Nurse pay has increased quite a bit this year, now reaching $5k-$10k a week...
    - virtual_void 6y ago
      I’m astonished it’s that high. I’d be interested in seeing a source for your data point. To be clear, i believe they deserve a high level of compensation it’s just that they’re usually treated badly compared to the societal benefit they provide. Certainly in the uk the median annual salary is about £26k. The above figures would mean US nurses are earning ~12x more.
      - floydnoel 6y ago
        Ok, I’ll do the googling for you... https://lmgtfy.app/?q=nurse+pay+pandemic https://lmgtfy.app/?q=nurse+pay+pandemic
      - joyeuse6701 6y ago
        Wife is a nurse in the USA, the pay is much higher than Europe, $90k+ in California is common. Crisis nursing has also increased the pay in times of COVID. Additionally, there are specialities within nursing that pay even more, such as nurse practitioner.
        virtual_void 6y ago
        That’s much better than Europe and at least a bit more like it. Nurse practitioner i think is about 50k at best in the uk. I guess the rather different way that healthcare operates between the two regions has a lot to do with it. Still not as optimistic as the lower bound stated on the parent post which was more like 240k (assuming 48 weeks).
  - carlmr 6y ago
    >Are they light pattern people getting exploited? Why won't society raise their salaries, so more people will work as nurses or at least not resign I would guess that most nurses get into the job because they want to help people, that seems like a really light pattern trait. Society only very indirectly decides their salaries. At least in most countries right now it's a market mechanism that is ruthless. Of course there are other humans that may or may not have moral qualms. But as long as some people are ready to exploit others they have a pretty clear financial competitive edge (all else being equal). If nurse salaries are low the economic answer is simple, it's because there are enough (or too many) nurses willing to take this job at that pay level. The societal answer is not that simple. We actually want more nurses, because they are needed. We also don't want to pay more for healthcare, maybe we can't, America seems to be at the limit here, Western Europe is already close. So if you want more and better paid nurses without paying more, that only leaves shifting money from insurances, hospitals and pharmaceutical/medical equipment companies to nurses. And to get to do that there has to be some market pressure or regulation.
vmception 6y ago
I tell those kind of people that they are single handedly contributing to a (perceived or real) wage gap. I coach women that are afraid of being perceived as too assertive in their own organization that their competition got kicked out of organizations for being too cocky until finally landing a high level position where they needed to “make the tough decisions”. The competition doesn't care about losing or being married to a single organization. This all ties into the breadth of choices some people are willing to perceive and entertain.
MaxBarraclough 6y ago
> If only HN had a gold star type thing, instead you'll have to settle for being included in my notes. HN has an often overlooked favourite feature, if that helps. It seems to only show for the comment at the top of the tree you're viewing.
carlmr 6y ago
>One of the frequent issues I hit with other people is that they will "block off" a choice before actually evaluating it. I constantly experience it and don't understand it, personally. I'm not sure if it's a dark trait in and of itself to be able to think through many options though. I'm sometimes quite frustrated when people will say "we can't do this" before even hearing the end of the sentence. I've always chalked it up to lack of fantasy, but maybe it's a very strong moral compass as you suggest.

grugagag 6y ago

> "they need me and the company might fail if I leave" Isn't this also some kind of hero mentality that these people enjoy being part of? Eventually they realize it doesn't pay bills but while it does make them feel great and that's the temporary payoff. We all learn from our mistakes. It might also be genuine kinship with their coworkers and this is exactly where the leadership of the said company is extremely smart and evil at the same time: they know how to attract intelligent benevolent nerds to exploit and they know that they'll eventually smarten up and leave but the world is large, There's a sucker born every minute All in all, the revolving door and the high churn rate won't make a big dent for the company.

cutemonster 6y ago
What about nurses working 12 hour shifts, helping people survive covid-19 -- now they are needed, or people will die. But I never heard about them getting any special extra compensation for working that much and also a bit risking their life. Also, nurses are often women. Are they light pattern people getting exploited? Why won't society raise their salaries, so more people will work as nurses or at least not resign -- so they won't need to work 12 h shifts > it does make them feel great and that's the temporary payoff. I think in the cases of nurses it can be the opposite: that they'd feel guilt if they quit
- floydnoel 6y ago
  > I never heard about them getting any special extra compensation for working that much and also a bit risking their life Nurse pay has increased quite a bit this year, now reaching $5k-$10k a week...
  - virtual_void 6y ago
    I’m astonished it’s that high. I’d be interested in seeing a source for your data point. To be clear, i believe they deserve a high level of compensation it’s just that they’re usually treated badly compared to the societal benefit they provide. Certainly in the uk the median annual salary is about £26k. The above figures would mean US nurses are earning ~12x more.
    - floydnoel 6y ago
      Ok, I’ll do the googling for you... https://lmgtfy.app/?q=nurse+pay+pandemic https://lmgtfy.app/?q=nurse+pay+pandemic
    - joyeuse6701 6y ago
      Wife is a nurse in the USA, the pay is much higher than Europe, $90k+ in California is common. Crisis nursing has also increased the pay in times of COVID. Additionally, there are specialities within nursing that pay even more, such as nurse practitioner.
      - virtual_void 6y ago
        That’s much better than Europe and at least a bit more like it. Nurse practitioner i think is about 50k at best in the uk. I guess the rather different way that healthcare operates between the two regions has a lot to do with it. Still not as optimistic as the lower bound stated on the parent post which was more like 240k (assuming 48 weeks).
- carlmr 6y ago
  >Are they light pattern people getting exploited? Why won't society raise their salaries, so more people will work as nurses or at least not resign I would guess that most nurses get into the job because they want to help people, that seems like a really light pattern trait. Society only very indirectly decides their salaries. At least in most countries right now it's a market mechanism that is ruthless. Of course there are other humans that may or may not have moral qualms. But as long as some people are ready to exploit others they have a pretty clear financial competitive edge (all else being equal). If nurse salaries are low the economic answer is simple, it's because there are enough (or too many) nurses willing to take this job at that pay level. The societal answer is not that simple. We actually want more nurses, because they are needed. We also don't want to pay more for healthcare, maybe we can't, America seems to be at the limit here, Western Europe is already close. So if you want more and better paid nurses without paying more, that only leaves shifting money from insurances, hospitals and pharmaceutical/medical equipment companies to nurses. And to get to do that there has to be some market pressure or regulation.

vmception 6y ago

I tell those kind of people that they are single handedly contributing to a (perceived or real) wage gap. I coach women that are afraid of being perceived as too assertive in their own organization that their competition got kicked out of organizations for being too cocky until finally landing a high level position where they needed to “make the tough decisions”. The competition doesn't care about losing or being married to a single organization. This all ties into the breadth of choices some people are willing to perceive and entertain.

MaxBarraclough 6y ago

> If only HN had a gold star type thing, instead you'll have to settle for being included in my notes. HN has an often overlooked favourite feature, if that helps. It seems to only show for the comment at the top of the tree you're viewing.

carlmr 6y ago

>One of the frequent issues I hit with other people is that they will "block off" a choice before actually evaluating it. I constantly experience it and don't understand it, personally. I'm not sure if it's a dark trait in and of itself to be able to think through many options though. I'm sometimes quite frustrated when people will say "we can't do this" before even hearing the end of the sentence. I've always chalked it up to lack of fantasy, but maybe it's a very strong moral compass as you suggest.