4 ms·

Because, if you have Western values, to which the CCP is diametrically opposed, they are actually "the worst" in some sense.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
You don't have to agree with their values. But why labeling them as evil for not following your values? Western values don't work well in China. Chinese values don't work in the west. To each their own. Why do they have to be an enemy for which evil is always assumed, regardless of evidence? FYI, I'm Chinese.
- anonymousab 6y ago
  >But why labeling them as evil for not following your values? Because they view those values as inherently good, and thus opposition to those values as inherently bad. If you view freedom of religion or speech as a fundamental human good or need, then naturally a government opposed to (or seen as greatly curtailing) those values will be seen as 'evil'. On a more human and physical level, people see, say, the Xinjiang camps and view that as reflective of the values of that government, as evil, the same way they may see the immigrant child separation in the US as reflective of its government's values, and as evil. Actions speaking louder than words of intent.
  - yibg 6y ago
    Shouldn't those acts be labeled evil (or good) instead? I mean we don't say the US government as a whole is evil because of the child separation policy (some people do but not most). I'm pretty anti CPP for the most part, but I feel like we're losing all nuance when we use broad stroke labels. I also don't think it's productive. As soon as we label something or someone "evil" then any avenue for dialog and improvement is gone. The only thing left is conflict and confrontation.
trasz 6y ago
I'd say being the world's biggest warmonger isn't quite aligned with what most people consider the Western values. Decorating soldiers for shooting down civilian airliners, finding that there was nothing wrong whatsoever in killing peacefully protesting students, or sentencing a murderer to a fine because he happened to be famous don't look that good either.
- byecomputer 6y ago
  > killing peacefully protesting students, That said, there's a sharp cultural contrast between the responses to the Kent State massacre in the US and the Tienenman Square massacre in China. In the US, you can't say Kent State wasn't popularly condemned, didn't prompt change, or isn't burned into the nation's psyche to this day. In China, you can't say much about Tienenman Square, period.
  - trasz 6y ago
    In China, the Tienanmen Square massacre and surrounding events are basic knowledge; afaik every high schooler learns about them.
    - byecomputer 6y ago
      To my knowledge, it's widely known of and therefore spoken of privately, but it isn't taught in schools (beyond an acknowledgement that there were protests) and information surrounding the massacre is suppressed on a top-down basis.
      - trasz 6y ago
        I'm depending entirely on various bits and pieces on the Internet here, but, quoting https://qr.ae/pNaLCw https://qr.ae/pNaLCw: "I first learned about the happening of the incident at school, in the Grade 8 “Morality and Politics” class. [..] At the chapter on constitution, our teacher briefly mentioned the "turbulence": basically, in 1989 students used to take the streets and things "ended up messy". But he didn't give much detail." This matches other stuff I've read in the past - it's not heavily discussed, but I wouldn't call it suppressed either. EDIT: There's another aspect to this: I have no idea how it looks like in schools in various western countries, but from what I remember from Poland, it's all about "government murdering protesters". It doesn't mention whatsoever that it was much more complicated and there victims on all sides.
UncleMeat 6y ago
I find it amazing that the conservative drum beat of markets, capitalism, deregulation, and free distribution of speech all seem to fly out the window as soon as it is time to complain about china. Now suddenly western values must be defended by banning access to software.

FooBarWidget 6y ago

You don't have to agree with their values. But why labeling them as evil for not following your values? Western values don't work well in China. Chinese values don't work in the west. To each their own. Why do they have to be an enemy for which evil is always assumed, regardless of evidence? FYI, I'm Chinese.

anonymousab 6y ago
>But why labeling them as evil for not following your values? Because they view those values as inherently good, and thus opposition to those values as inherently bad. If you view freedom of religion or speech as a fundamental human good or need, then naturally a government opposed to (or seen as greatly curtailing) those values will be seen as 'evil'. On a more human and physical level, people see, say, the Xinjiang camps and view that as reflective of the values of that government, as evil, the same way they may see the immigrant child separation in the US as reflective of its government's values, and as evil. Actions speaking louder than words of intent.
- yibg 6y ago
  Shouldn't those acts be labeled evil (or good) instead? I mean we don't say the US government as a whole is evil because of the child separation policy (some people do but not most). I'm pretty anti CPP for the most part, but I feel like we're losing all nuance when we use broad stroke labels. I also don't think it's productive. As soon as we label something or someone "evil" then any avenue for dialog and improvement is gone. The only thing left is conflict and confrontation.

trasz 6y ago

I'd say being the world's biggest warmonger isn't quite aligned with what most people consider the Western values. Decorating soldiers for shooting down civilian airliners, finding that there was nothing wrong whatsoever in killing peacefully protesting students, or sentencing a murderer to a fine because he happened to be famous don't look that good either.

byecomputer 6y ago
> killing peacefully protesting students, That said, there's a sharp cultural contrast between the responses to the Kent State massacre in the US and the Tienenman Square massacre in China. In the US, you can't say Kent State wasn't popularly condemned, didn't prompt change, or isn't burned into the nation's psyche to this day. In China, you can't say much about Tienenman Square, period.
- trasz 6y ago
  In China, the Tienanmen Square massacre and surrounding events are basic knowledge; afaik every high schooler learns about them.
  - byecomputer 6y ago
    To my knowledge, it's widely known of and therefore spoken of privately, but it isn't taught in schools (beyond an acknowledgement that there were protests) and information surrounding the massacre is suppressed on a top-down basis.
    - trasz 6y ago
      I'm depending entirely on various bits and pieces on the Internet here, but, quoting https://qr.ae/pNaLCw https://qr.ae/pNaLCw: "I first learned about the happening of the incident at school, in the Grade 8 “Morality and Politics” class. [..] At the chapter on constitution, our teacher briefly mentioned the "turbulence": basically, in 1989 students used to take the streets and things "ended up messy". But he didn't give much detail." This matches other stuff I've read in the past - it's not heavily discussed, but I wouldn't call it suppressed either. EDIT: There's another aspect to this: I have no idea how it looks like in schools in various western countries, but from what I remember from Poland, it's all about "government murdering protesters". It doesn't mention whatsoever that it was much more complicated and there victims on all sides.

UncleMeat 6y ago

I find it amazing that the conservative drum beat of markets, capitalism, deregulation, and free distribution of speech all seem to fly out the window as soon as it is time to complain about china. Now suddenly western values must be defended by banning access to software.