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Also, narcissistsic sociopaths can have a high capacity for empathy in the sense of knowing what others feel and think while also ruthlessly manipulating, being

Also, narcissistsic sociopaths can have a high capacity for empathy in the sense of knowing what others feel and think while also ruthlessly manipulating, being two-faced based on who is present and the gaslighting others when these obvious differences are brought up (differences like switching the entire tone of voice and mannerisms at the flip of a switch, as if it was new person, just to suck up to or put down people depending on their goals). Working with such people can be a nightmare because they appear so charming outward to powerful people in decision making positions, while being cruel and sadistic to others, leaving very little for these people to do because the higher ups love the individual and cannot imagine what is hidden from them.

mercurialshark 6y ago
> a nightmare because they appear so charming outward to powerful people in decision making positions, while being cruel and sadistic to others I wouldn't conflate emotional intelligence - i.e. the ability to modulate behavior based on person specific interactions - with necessarily possessing negative, vindictive, malign or cruel personality traits. That's definitely a stereotype. It is entirely possible to be charming, without secretly being cruel or vindictive. Yes, it can be more difficult to judge a disarming person's intentions, but that doesn't mean the person is inherently sadistic or ill willed. Perhaps they are just good at making other people feel comfortable.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  I didn't imply that every charming person is suspicious for being cruel. Just that when you are on the receiving end, it can be very frustrating to try and tell others about it. This is in fact one mechanism that keeps victims of sexual or other harassment and bullying silent. And I don't mean small misunderstandings and microagressions. There are people who will literally tell you "you can try telling about this to XY, they will never believe you." being absolutely conscious and intentional about the whole thing. The existence of such people is really hard to believe for many. There are truly evil people out there who know they are evil and probably cannot even help it very much. They also often try to turn things around and blame you for the things that they do. We call it gaslighting. And in a meta way, they will even preemptively say you are gaslighting them! And it devolves into a "no u" kind of debate and some victims even end up believing it! It can literally make you go crazy! Search YouTube for narcissist or psychopath, sociopath recordings. There are secret video and audio recordings of what these people will do to their subordinates, eg their children or employees. It is absolutely mind bending and life changing to see how predictable and consistent they are. Now, this is of course a pathological extreme. But there are milder versions of it too.
  - mercurialshark 6y ago
    All good points, thanks. Yes, being on the receiving end - especially when you rely on the other person's best intentions - can be traumatizing. And yes, that's a particularly terrible form of manipulation.
    - bonoboTP 6y ago
      The problem is especially bad when they get into a position to police other people's conduct and are supposedly there to serve justice. The problem is that many well intentioned people cannot imagine that it's the case. This will have to be a big realization that the reasonable factions of the social justice movements will need to make. In the current climate this is just too far out to be a topic of rational discussion. Indeed I assume many people now discount everything I wrote due to mentioning this political angle. But when you actually think about it, it would be surprising if such people didn't seek out some of these powerful positions to roam free.
      - cutemonster 6y ago
        Makes me wonder what you think about the former president > seek out some of these powerful positions to roam free
        bonoboTP 6y ago
        I guess you mean Trump (still prez till Jan 20). He's a clown. I don't know if he's actually a cruel person who likes to psychologically torment people around him.
ardy42 6y ago
> Also, narcissistsic sociopaths can have a high capacity for empathy in the sense of knowing what others feel and think while also ruthlessly manipulating I initially thought this wasn't considered empathy, but TIL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Classification: > Empathy is generally divided into two major components: ... > Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy: the capacity to respond with an appropriate emotion to another's mental states.... sympathy and compassion for others in response to their suffering.... self-centered feelings of discomfort and anxiety in response to another's suffering.... > Cognitive empathy: the capacity to understand another's perspective or mental state.... > Affective and cognitive empathy are also independent from one another; someone who strongly empathizes emotionally is not necessarily good in understanding another's perspective. However, I think when most people use the term "empathy" they're almost exclusively referring to affective empathy. I like Wikipedia's translation of the German term for empathy, Einfühlung, as "feeling into," which captures the meaning pretty well for me.
- bonoboTP 6y ago
  On the other hand, someone on the autism spectrum may be able to emotionally empathize if they find it clear what the other person feels, but may not be able to cognitively intuit complicated webs of unspoken social relations and resulting feelings of many layers of "I expected him/her to know that I think he ...."
  - caddemon 6y ago
    Yes exactly, I feel this could actually be further split to 3 mostly disjoint concepts: 1. Can I understand why person X would feel emotion Y in situation Z? People probably vary the most on this one when they themselves would not feel emotion Y in situation Z, because it becomes about how well they can put themselves in the shoes of someone with different values/priors (from a more cerebral perspective). There's also a difference between retroactive explanation and prediction of course, but without extensive knowledge on person X prediction can be very hard in the "gray areas" mentioned. 2. If I know that person X feels emotion Y, do I feel emotion Y myself? Again, most people probably have this for their closest friends/family, but the degree to which one has this for people they casually encounter seems to vary widely. Probably due to both inherent personality trait differences, and varying circumstances over time - for example if you currently have some intense mood for personal reasons it may be harder to feel an opposing mood because of someone else (but easier when it's the same mood maybe?) My understanding is 1 is cognitive empathy and 2 is affective empathy, but I'm not as sure whether 2 encompasses all of affective empathy, because there is also: 3. Given limited information about the situation, can one still figure out the emotion someone is feeling? This allows empathy #2 to be applied more readily, and in cases where your actions are relevant (coworkers, friends, etc.) to investigate further and possibly apply empathy #1. I'm not sure whether 3 is itself considered part of empathy, but certainly it is very important in being able to "use" your empathy in daily life, so it functionally is part of empathy. And this is likely the trait most frequently impaired in individuals on the spectrum, as it requires recognizing subtle, often non-verbal, behavioral cues. I'm not super up to date on the literature but I don't believe 1 or 2 above are considered to be impaired in most cases of Autism, and there definitely are articles out there about how it's incorrect to say those on the spectrum have low empathy. It's hard to rate oneself accurately, but personally I would say I am above average at 1, average at 2, and below average at 3 (solid at little linguistic hints but horrible at picking up on facial expressions, posture, tone of voice, etc.)
zozbot234 6y ago
I think this is better described as superficial charm than any meaningful understanding of other's goals and feelings. It's easy to be outwardly charming when you have no real intention to follow up on whatever you're promising to others.

mercurialshark 6y ago

> a nightmare because they appear so charming outward to powerful people in decision making positions, while being cruel and sadistic to others I wouldn't conflate emotional intelligence - i.e. the ability to modulate behavior based on person specific interactions - with necessarily possessing negative, vindictive, malign or cruel personality traits. That's definitely a stereotype. It is entirely possible to be charming, without secretly being cruel or vindictive. Yes, it can be more difficult to judge a disarming person's intentions, but that doesn't mean the person is inherently sadistic or ill willed. Perhaps they are just good at making other people feel comfortable.

bonoboTP 6y ago
I didn't imply that every charming person is suspicious for being cruel. Just that when you are on the receiving end, it can be very frustrating to try and tell others about it. This is in fact one mechanism that keeps victims of sexual or other harassment and bullying silent. And I don't mean small misunderstandings and microagressions. There are people who will literally tell you "you can try telling about this to XY, they will never believe you." being absolutely conscious and intentional about the whole thing. The existence of such people is really hard to believe for many. There are truly evil people out there who know they are evil and probably cannot even help it very much. They also often try to turn things around and blame you for the things that they do. We call it gaslighting. And in a meta way, they will even preemptively say you are gaslighting them! And it devolves into a "no u" kind of debate and some victims even end up believing it! It can literally make you go crazy! Search YouTube for narcissist or psychopath, sociopath recordings. There are secret video and audio recordings of what these people will do to their subordinates, eg their children or employees. It is absolutely mind bending and life changing to see how predictable and consistent they are. Now, this is of course a pathological extreme. But there are milder versions of it too.
- mercurialshark 6y ago
  All good points, thanks. Yes, being on the receiving end - especially when you rely on the other person's best intentions - can be traumatizing. And yes, that's a particularly terrible form of manipulation.
  - bonoboTP 6y ago
    The problem is especially bad when they get into a position to police other people's conduct and are supposedly there to serve justice. The problem is that many well intentioned people cannot imagine that it's the case. This will have to be a big realization that the reasonable factions of the social justice movements will need to make. In the current climate this is just too far out to be a topic of rational discussion. Indeed I assume many people now discount everything I wrote due to mentioning this political angle. But when you actually think about it, it would be surprising if such people didn't seek out some of these powerful positions to roam free.
    - cutemonster 6y ago
      Makes me wonder what you think about the former president > seek out some of these powerful positions to roam free
      - bonoboTP 6y ago
        I guess you mean Trump (still prez till Jan 20). He's a clown. I don't know if he's actually a cruel person who likes to psychologically torment people around him.

ardy42 6y ago

> Also, narcissistsic sociopaths can have a high capacity for empathy in the sense of knowing what others feel and think while also ruthlessly manipulating I initially thought this wasn't considered empathy, but TIL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Classification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empathy#Classification: > Empathy is generally divided into two major components: ... > Affective empathy, also called emotional empathy: the capacity to respond with an appropriate emotion to another's mental states.... sympathy and compassion for others in response to their suffering.... self-centered feelings of discomfort and anxiety in response to another's suffering.... > Cognitive empathy: the capacity to understand another's perspective or mental state.... > Affective and cognitive empathy are also independent from one another; someone who strongly empathizes emotionally is not necessarily good in understanding another's perspective. However, I think when most people use the term "empathy" they're almost exclusively referring to affective empathy. I like Wikipedia's translation of the German term for empathy, Einfühlung, as "feeling into," which captures the meaning pretty well for me.

bonoboTP 6y ago
On the other hand, someone on the autism spectrum may be able to emotionally empathize if they find it clear what the other person feels, but may not be able to cognitively intuit complicated webs of unspoken social relations and resulting feelings of many layers of "I expected him/her to know that I think he ...."
- caddemon 6y ago
  Yes exactly, I feel this could actually be further split to 3 mostly disjoint concepts: 1. Can I understand why person X would feel emotion Y in situation Z? People probably vary the most on this one when they themselves would not feel emotion Y in situation Z, because it becomes about how well they can put themselves in the shoes of someone with different values/priors (from a more cerebral perspective). There's also a difference between retroactive explanation and prediction of course, but without extensive knowledge on person X prediction can be very hard in the "gray areas" mentioned. 2. If I know that person X feels emotion Y, do I feel emotion Y myself? Again, most people probably have this for their closest friends/family, but the degree to which one has this for people they casually encounter seems to vary widely. Probably due to both inherent personality trait differences, and varying circumstances over time - for example if you currently have some intense mood for personal reasons it may be harder to feel an opposing mood because of someone else (but easier when it's the same mood maybe?) My understanding is 1 is cognitive empathy and 2 is affective empathy, but I'm not as sure whether 2 encompasses all of affective empathy, because there is also: 3. Given limited information about the situation, can one still figure out the emotion someone is feeling? This allows empathy #2 to be applied more readily, and in cases where your actions are relevant (coworkers, friends, etc.) to investigate further and possibly apply empathy #1. I'm not sure whether 3 is itself considered part of empathy, but certainly it is very important in being able to "use" your empathy in daily life, so it functionally is part of empathy. And this is likely the trait most frequently impaired in individuals on the spectrum, as it requires recognizing subtle, often non-verbal, behavioral cues. I'm not super up to date on the literature but I don't believe 1 or 2 above are considered to be impaired in most cases of Autism, and there definitely are articles out there about how it's incorrect to say those on the spectrum have low empathy. It's hard to rate oneself accurately, but personally I would say I am above average at 1, average at 2, and below average at 3 (solid at little linguistic hints but horrible at picking up on facial expressions, posture, tone of voice, etc.)

zozbot234 6y ago

I think this is better described as superficial charm than any meaningful understanding of other's goals and feelings. It's easy to be outwardly charming when you have no real intention to follow up on whatever you're promising to others.