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Unlike the Tiktok ban, it's not a discriminatory ban that targets US apps, for the sole reason that they're from the US. It's a ban based on non-discriminatory

Unlike the Tiktok ban, it's not a discriminatory ban that targets US apps, for the sole reason that they're from the US. It's a ban based on non-discriminatory rules. From the article: "Most of the banned apps are Chinese" Unfortunately transparency is a problem, as they did not state more details about the ban.

philliphaydon 6y ago
It’s an assumption that it’s not discriminatory or targeted. There’s nothing to say that it’s not just disguised to annoy the US and turn around and fool people into believing it’s not targeted. I donno why there’s so many apologists on HN. :/
- trasz 6y ago
  The "apologists" are simply the people who can see past the US propaganda.
  - eloff 6y ago
    But get suckered by Chinese propaganda? I think there's a bit more nuance on both sides of this story.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      Which part is "Chinese propaganda"? I observe that the majority of the banned apps are Chinese, and that one is western, while at the same time lots of western apps remain accessible in China. That's all I base my conclusion on. At no point did I base my conclusion on anything the Chinese government said. To say that they are discriminatory despite the above data, is an assumption. That assumption may be right (because the data is not mathematically solid evidence). On the other hand, it may be not. But I think accepting that assumption is in line with US propaganda.
      - byecomputer 6y ago
        > lots of western apps remain accessible in China And lots of western apps aren't accessible in China. Such as Google, Wikipedia, Facebook, Twitter. Furthermore, did you know TikTok itself is banned in mainland China? No kidding, they have an different version of the app that's Chinese-only. I think the implication that China's being the free-market player here is faulty, to say the least. There's an argument to be made about how censorship of foreign applications conflicts with the US's values, for sure, but the one-way street argument doesn't scan.
        trasz 6y ago
        Let me get this right, are you suggesting https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5 https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5 is developed only by international Chinese diaspora, since it's not accessible in China?
        byecomputer 6y ago
        What do you want me to say? It's banned in China. It wasn't always banned in China, but as of April 2019 all versions of Wikipedia are verboten. Here's an article from a little over a month ago describing someone's arrest for going there: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/world/article-china-cracks-down-on-illegal-web-use/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/world/article-china-crac...
        trasz 6y ago
        tl;dr in several provinces there has been a number of cases where folks got verbal warning for doing it. Given the scale (1.5 billion people), it's bit like saying "in US you can call the police to murder your annoying neighbour and they will come and shoot him on the spot". VPN use is ubiquitous in China, it's as simple as that.
        byecomputer 6y ago
        > in several provinces there has been a number of cases where folks got verbal warning for doing it. From that same article: || But police have also issued fines, confiscated thousands of dollars earned through online activity, seized routers and ordered "the suspension of networking,” effectively cutting off users from the internet. In some cases, police have punished trading companies that were using VPN software to access the wider internet for the purposes of “international networking.” || > VPN use is ubiquitous in China, it's as simple as that. || Now, however, detailed records published online by Zhejiang province show authorities moving against the very act of accessing unapproved parts of the internet through VPNs that are not government-approved. ||
  - addicted 6y ago
    The vast majority of people “who see past the US propaganda” also see past the Chinese propaganda. The vast majority of them want to address the privacy issues raised by such apps and companies irrespective of whether it’s the US or China misappropriating our data.
    - trasz 6y ago
      That's of course true, but then banning TikTok increases YouTube's monopoly, making Google's privacy and data protection issues even worse.
      - nouveaux 6y ago
        China's abuse of data is far worse than United States[1]. Just as I would push for more privacy regarding how US handles personal data, I would do the same for China. In this case, a ban on TikTok is the best signal we can send to the CCP. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/world/asia/china-surveillance-xinjiang.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/world/asia/china-surveill...
        trasz 6y ago
        USA doesn't even have personal data protection laws. China does. As for the article - this all sounds like a subset of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_mass_surveillance_projects#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_mass_survei..., until you realize one crucial thing: in case of US, the preferred way of dealing with this kind of minorities is either AC-130, or JDAM. Any kind of surveillance and reeducation camps is better from ethics point of view.
        nouveaux 6y ago
        This is incorrect. USA has laws protecting against government overreach[1]. In the case of China, the government does not need the court of law to access your data. [1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-279-subpoenas https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  I thought that the majority of the banned apps being Chinese, and that only one western app being banned (while leaving lots and lots of other western apps alone), should be proof enough. But okay. Let's say it's not a mathematically solid proof. Agreed. On the other hand, there's no mathematical proof that they are being discriminatory, either. Why is it apologetic to not assume the worst of China at every turn?
  - endtime 6y ago
    Because, if you have Western values, to which the CCP is diametrically opposed, they are actually "the worst" in some sense.
    - FooBarWidget 6y ago
      You don't have to agree with their values. But why labeling them as evil for not following your values? Western values don't work well in China. Chinese values don't work in the west. To each their own. Why do they have to be an enemy for which evil is always assumed, regardless of evidence? FYI, I'm Chinese.
      - anonymousab 6y ago
        >But why labeling them as evil for not following your values? Because they view those values as inherently good, and thus opposition to those values as inherently bad. If you view freedom of religion or speech as a fundamental human good or need, then naturally a government opposed to (or seen as greatly curtailing) those values will be seen as 'evil'. On a more human and physical level, people see, say, the Xinjiang camps and view that as reflective of the values of that government, as evil, the same way they may see the immigrant child separation in the US as reflective of its government's values, and as evil. Actions speaking louder than words of intent.
        yibg 6y ago
        Shouldn't those acts be labeled evil (or good) instead? I mean we don't say the US government as a whole is evil because of the child separation policy (some people do but not most). I'm pretty anti CPP for the most part, but I feel like we're losing all nuance when we use broad stroke labels. I also don't think it's productive. As soon as we label something or someone "evil" then any avenue for dialog and improvement is gone. The only thing left is conflict and confrontation.
- bagacrap 6y ago
  On a thread where we discuss the CCP's use of social media to influence public opinion in the US, it seems like the answer to this question should be apparent.
  - yibg 6y ago
    Or you know, people actually have different views on things.
- yibg 6y ago
  The world isn’t black and white. One can be anti China for most things and still agree with them for some things. Similarly one can be pro “west” and still disagree with the US. I find it problematic that anything in support of China or against the US in the context of US vs China is labeled being an apologist or Chinese propaganda. It’s a good way to shut down all discussion, much like the whole “that’s heresy” from ages past.
jtdev 6y ago
Yeah, because they’ve already banned every U.S. app for Chinese consumers via other measures, i.e., “Great Firewall”. Your comment and perspective is either naive or disingenuous.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  "Every US app"? Duolingo, Microsoft Teams, Skype, FaceTime all work in China, to name a few.
  - jtdev 6y ago
    These apps have been re-built from the ground up in accordance with Chinese rules to work in China and the source code of these apps has been completely disclosed to the Chinese Communist apparatus. Do you think any one of those apps is authorized to make API calls out of China? API calls, not phone calls yorwba
    - yorwba 6y ago
      I have in fact made Skype calls from China. I don't know where you're getting your information about those apps' source code from, but since you were wrong about the second part, I'm going to assume you just imagined a plausible story and claimed it as fact.
      - jtdev 6y ago
        Using the Chinese version of Skype, which the CCP certainly has backdoor access to surveil without warrant or oversights of any kind. Regarding the source code thing: you’re either not paying attention or you’re a CCP propagandist. https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/telecom/security/chinas-new-rules-ask-tech-firms-to-hand-over-source-code https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/telecom/security/chinas-...
        yorwba 6y ago
        From your link: > The rules only apply to companies selling computer products to Chinese banks Your original comment didn't read like you were talking about auditing in the financial sector.
jtdev 6y ago
If TikTok were a flappy bird clone... we wouldn't be having this conversation. It was not being banned "for the sole reason" that it's of Chinese origin, it's the fact that the app is essentially a mass surveillance device.

philliphaydon 6y ago

It’s an assumption that it’s not discriminatory or targeted. There’s nothing to say that it’s not just disguised to annoy the US and turn around and fool people into believing it’s not targeted. I donno why there’s so many apologists on HN. :/

trasz 6y ago
The "apologists" are simply the people who can see past the US propaganda.
- eloff 6y ago
  But get suckered by Chinese propaganda? I think there's a bit more nuance on both sides of this story.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    Which part is "Chinese propaganda"? I observe that the majority of the banned apps are Chinese, and that one is western, while at the same time lots of western apps remain accessible in China. That's all I base my conclusion on. At no point did I base my conclusion on anything the Chinese government said. To say that they are discriminatory despite the above data, is an assumption. That assumption may be right (because the data is not mathematically solid evidence). On the other hand, it may be not. But I think accepting that assumption is in line with US propaganda.
    - byecomputer 6y ago
      > lots of western apps remain accessible in China And lots of western apps aren't accessible in China. Such as Google, Wikipedia, Facebook, Twitter. Furthermore, did you know TikTok itself is banned in mainland China? No kidding, they have an different version of the app that's Chinese-only. I think the implication that China's being the free-market player here is faulty, to say the least. There's an argument to be made about how censorship of foreign applications conflicts with the US's values, for sure, but the one-way street argument doesn't scan.
      - trasz 6y ago
        Let me get this right, are you suggesting https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5 https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:%E9%A6%96%E9%A1%B5 is developed only by international Chinese diaspora, since it's not accessible in China?
        byecomputer 6y ago
        What do you want me to say? It's banned in China. It wasn't always banned in China, but as of April 2019 all versions of Wikipedia are verboten. Here's an article from a little over a month ago describing someone's arrest for going there: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/world/article-china-cracks-down-on-illegal-web-use/ https://www.theglobeandmail.com/amp/world/article-china-crac...
        trasz 6y ago
        tl;dr in several provinces there has been a number of cases where folks got verbal warning for doing it. Given the scale (1.5 billion people), it's bit like saying "in US you can call the police to murder your annoying neighbour and they will come and shoot him on the spot". VPN use is ubiquitous in China, it's as simple as that.
        byecomputer 6y ago
        > in several provinces there has been a number of cases where folks got verbal warning for doing it. From that same article: || But police have also issued fines, confiscated thousands of dollars earned through online activity, seized routers and ordered "the suspension of networking,” effectively cutting off users from the internet. In some cases, police have punished trading companies that were using VPN software to access the wider internet for the purposes of “international networking.” || > VPN use is ubiquitous in China, it's as simple as that. || Now, however, detailed records published online by Zhejiang province show authorities moving against the very act of accessing unapproved parts of the internet through VPNs that are not government-approved. ||
- addicted 6y ago
  The vast majority of people “who see past the US propaganda” also see past the Chinese propaganda. The vast majority of them want to address the privacy issues raised by such apps and companies irrespective of whether it’s the US or China misappropriating our data.
  - trasz 6y ago
    That's of course true, but then banning TikTok increases YouTube's monopoly, making Google's privacy and data protection issues even worse.
    - nouveaux 6y ago
      China's abuse of data is far worse than United States[1]. Just as I would push for more privacy regarding how US handles personal data, I would do the same for China. In this case, a ban on TikTok is the best signal we can send to the CCP. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/world/asia/china-surveillance-xinjiang.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/22/world/asia/china-surveill...
      - trasz 6y ago
        USA doesn't even have personal data protection laws. China does. As for the article - this all sounds like a subset of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_mass_surveillance_projects#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_government_mass_survei..., until you realize one crucial thing: in case of US, the preferred way of dealing with this kind of minorities is either AC-130, or JDAM. Any kind of surveillance and reeducation camps is better from ethics point of view.
        nouveaux 6y ago
        This is incorrect. USA has laws protecting against government overreach[1]. In the case of China, the government does not need the court of law to access your data. [1] https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-279-subpoenas https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual...
FooBarWidget 6y ago
I thought that the majority of the banned apps being Chinese, and that only one western app being banned (while leaving lots and lots of other western apps alone), should be proof enough. But okay. Let's say it's not a mathematically solid proof. Agreed. On the other hand, there's no mathematical proof that they are being discriminatory, either. Why is it apologetic to not assume the worst of China at every turn?
- endtime 6y ago
  Because, if you have Western values, to which the CCP is diametrically opposed, they are actually "the worst" in some sense.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    You don't have to agree with their values. But why labeling them as evil for not following your values? Western values don't work well in China. Chinese values don't work in the west. To each their own. Why do they have to be an enemy for which evil is always assumed, regardless of evidence? FYI, I'm Chinese.
    - anonymousab 6y ago
      >But why labeling them as evil for not following your values? Because they view those values as inherently good, and thus opposition to those values as inherently bad. If you view freedom of religion or speech as a fundamental human good or need, then naturally a government opposed to (or seen as greatly curtailing) those values will be seen as 'evil'. On a more human and physical level, people see, say, the Xinjiang camps and view that as reflective of the values of that government, as evil, the same way they may see the immigrant child separation in the US as reflective of its government's values, and as evil. Actions speaking louder than words of intent.
      - yibg 6y ago
        Shouldn't those acts be labeled evil (or good) instead? I mean we don't say the US government as a whole is evil because of the child separation policy (some people do but not most). I'm pretty anti CPP for the most part, but I feel like we're losing all nuance when we use broad stroke labels. I also don't think it's productive. As soon as we label something or someone "evil" then any avenue for dialog and improvement is gone. The only thing left is conflict and confrontation.
bagacrap 6y ago
On a thread where we discuss the CCP's use of social media to influence public opinion in the US, it seems like the answer to this question should be apparent.
- yibg 6y ago
  Or you know, people actually have different views on things.
yibg 6y ago
The world isn’t black and white. One can be anti China for most things and still agree with them for some things. Similarly one can be pro “west” and still disagree with the US. I find it problematic that anything in support of China or against the US in the context of US vs China is labeled being an apologist or Chinese propaganda. It’s a good way to shut down all discussion, much like the whole “that’s heresy” from ages past.

jtdev 6y ago

Yeah, because they’ve already banned every U.S. app for Chinese consumers via other measures, i.e., “Great Firewall”. Your comment and perspective is either naive or disingenuous.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
"Every US app"? Duolingo, Microsoft Teams, Skype, FaceTime all work in China, to name a few.
- jtdev 6y ago
  These apps have been re-built from the ground up in accordance with Chinese rules to work in China and the source code of these apps has been completely disclosed to the Chinese Communist apparatus. Do you think any one of those apps is authorized to make API calls out of China? API calls, not phone calls yorwba
  - yorwba 6y ago
    I have in fact made Skype calls from China. I don't know where you're getting your information about those apps' source code from, but since you were wrong about the second part, I'm going to assume you just imagined a plausible story and claimed it as fact.
    - jtdev 6y ago
      Using the Chinese version of Skype, which the CCP certainly has backdoor access to surveil without warrant or oversights of any kind. Regarding the source code thing: you’re either not paying attention or you’re a CCP propagandist. https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/telecom/security/chinas-new-rules-ask-tech-firms-to-hand-over-source-code https://spectrum.ieee.org/tech-talk/telecom/security/chinas-...
      - yorwba 6y ago
        From your link: > The rules only apply to companies selling computer products to Chinese banks Your original comment didn't read like you were talking about auditing in the financial sector.

jtdev 6y ago

If TikTok were a flappy bird clone... we wouldn't be having this conversation. It was not being banned "for the sole reason" that it's of Chinese origin, it's the fact that the app is essentially a mass surveillance device.