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Yes of course, we have to lower ourselves down to China's level otherwise we're weak. I guess also ignore China then pointing to the US and saying "our behavio

Yes of course, we have to lower ourselves down to China's level otherwise we're weak. I guess also ignore China then pointing to the US and saying "our behaviour is fine, even the US does it."

CobsterLock 6y ago
It is not about appearing weak, it is about a trade deficit . TikTok can make money off Americans with little effort but Facebook and Google have to make entirely new apps to get entry to the Chinese market (I can't remember if they still have live apps or if they are banned right now)
- akhilcacharya 6y ago
  Sounds like a defense of protectionism to me.
  - gruez 6y ago
    Are you suggesting that if one of our trading partners engages in protectionist measures (tariffs, dumping, subsidies, etc.) that we shouldn't retaliate?
    - Dirlewanger 6y ago
      Seriously. I'm baffled at the number of people that don't give a crap and that we should just do nothing. I hate to pick sides and perpetuate the "us vs. them" mentality, but the geopolitics of today are increasingly pushing toward it. We're on the verge of a new Cold War with China whether we like it or not. But instead of hoarding ICBMs, it's tech companies and the technologies surrounding them.
      - akhilcacharya 6y ago
        TikTok is not an ICBM.
    - akhilcacharya 6y ago
      For commodities like steel, yes. For TikTok? Seriously?
      - gruez 6y ago
        care to explain why?
- trasz 6y ago
  Which is probably the main reason China banned Facebook and Google in the first place (apart from security concerns).
- dirtyid 6y ago
  TikTok is literally a new global app for Douyin. It's not about trade deficits, it is about waning exceptionalism of silicon valley. They finally learned to debundle US culture with US tech. Something TikTok has been very agile on, making regional adaptations and complying to regional laws. Hubris is what kep facebook and google from returning to Chinese market 10 years ago.
  - AzzieElbab 6y ago
    Pretty easy to “debundle” when you just block access. If I lived in China I would take tiktok over any Silicon Valley app, and if I was looking for maximum network effects I would also use tiktok because potential market is 1.4 billion people larger
vlovich123 6y ago
I don’t to now why free speech is the issue OP chose to highlight. The bigger problem is access to the Chinese market. The West allows basically unfettered access to their markets with rules that generally are applied equally (obviously an ideal if not always the case). China is explicitly against that. To operate in the Chinese market you have to partner with a Chinese company and divulge a lot of IP to them. I disagree with the way Trump targeted a single company but I think instituting a similar policy across the West to deal with China in similar terms wouldn’t be a bad idea to try to get them to negotiate a better status quo.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  > China is explicitly against [unfettered access]. They are not "explicitly against that". They don't allow full access at the get-go, true, but it's a big overstatement to say that they are against the concept. If you look at what they've done in the past 20 years, you'll see that they're opening up to foreign business more and more. For example, joint ventures used to be required. A couple of years ago, that requirement has been dropped. And now with RCEP, they're reducing tariffs for many Asian countries. Walk down the street in China for 10 minutes and you'll see tons of western companies. Western countries also don't fully adhere to the free trade principle. There are countries that blocked investment from China for political reasons, way before the "but China is unfair for not allowing access into their markets" started.
  - vlovich123 6y ago
    Proof? They still require joint partnerships [1] and IP transfer in high tech industries. Sure they don’t require it in others where they’ve already built up domestic competitors and obtained all the IP they need (ie manufacturing). Granted maybe you have updated information here so open to reading about it. Claiming that “but western countries do it too” is unhelpful whataboutism. I didn’t claim Western countries don’t do crappy shit. In terms of market access and competition, that shiftiness is more about established players and regulatory capture rather than outright pseudo-fascism whereas China seems to have adopted fascism quite aggressively (ironic considering they call themselves a socialist party but I guess all authoritarian regimes end up looking very similar). Saying “I see western logos when I walk around in China” is missing the mark when I talk about what is required of companies when they enter China (and as I said not all industries, but the ones strategically important to China somehow, especially high tech) [1] http://voxchina.org/show-3-115.html http://voxchina.org/show-3-115.html
AzzieElbab 6y ago
It is not about morality or who says what. Can’t have billions of international users accepting Chinas censorship
- gizmo385 6y ago
  So the alternative is to instead impose US censorship? How is that any better?
  - 13415 6y ago
    It's not a bad idea to principally ban social networks that exercise government censorship on their users. I don't know if TikTok does that. Do they? The problem is also that what one country regards as political censorship another country just considers the application of reasonable laws. However, in the case of China that's such an obvious lame excuse - I mean, they literally interrupt phone calls in which people use certain terms.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

Yes of course, we have to lower ourselves down to China's level otherwise we're weak. I guess also ignore China then pointing to the US and saying "our behaviour is fine, even the US does it."

CobsterLock 6y ago

It is not about appearing weak, it is about a trade deficit . TikTok can make money off Americans with little effort but Facebook and Google have to make entirely new apps to get entry to the Chinese market (I can't remember if they still have live apps or if they are banned right now)

akhilcacharya 6y ago
Sounds like a defense of protectionism to me.
- gruez 6y ago
  Are you suggesting that if one of our trading partners engages in protectionist measures (tariffs, dumping, subsidies, etc.) that we shouldn't retaliate?
  - Dirlewanger 6y ago
    Seriously. I'm baffled at the number of people that don't give a crap and that we should just do nothing. I hate to pick sides and perpetuate the "us vs. them" mentality, but the geopolitics of today are increasingly pushing toward it. We're on the verge of a new Cold War with China whether we like it or not. But instead of hoarding ICBMs, it's tech companies and the technologies surrounding them.
    - akhilcacharya 6y ago
      TikTok is not an ICBM.
  - akhilcacharya 6y ago
    For commodities like steel, yes. For TikTok? Seriously?
    - gruez 6y ago
      care to explain why?
trasz 6y ago
Which is probably the main reason China banned Facebook and Google in the first place (apart from security concerns).
dirtyid 6y ago
TikTok is literally a new global app for Douyin. It's not about trade deficits, it is about waning exceptionalism of silicon valley. They finally learned to debundle US culture with US tech. Something TikTok has been very agile on, making regional adaptations and complying to regional laws. Hubris is what kep facebook and google from returning to Chinese market 10 years ago.
- AzzieElbab 6y ago
  Pretty easy to “debundle” when you just block access. If I lived in China I would take tiktok over any Silicon Valley app, and if I was looking for maximum network effects I would also use tiktok because potential market is 1.4 billion people larger

vlovich123 6y ago

I don’t to now why free speech is the issue OP chose to highlight. The bigger problem is access to the Chinese market. The West allows basically unfettered access to their markets with rules that generally are applied equally (obviously an ideal if not always the case). China is explicitly against that. To operate in the Chinese market you have to partner with a Chinese company and divulge a lot of IP to them. I disagree with the way Trump targeted a single company but I think instituting a similar policy across the West to deal with China in similar terms wouldn’t be a bad idea to try to get them to negotiate a better status quo.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
> China is explicitly against [unfettered access]. They are not "explicitly against that". They don't allow full access at the get-go, true, but it's a big overstatement to say that they are against the concept. If you look at what they've done in the past 20 years, you'll see that they're opening up to foreign business more and more. For example, joint ventures used to be required. A couple of years ago, that requirement has been dropped. And now with RCEP, they're reducing tariffs for many Asian countries. Walk down the street in China for 10 minutes and you'll see tons of western companies. Western countries also don't fully adhere to the free trade principle. There are countries that blocked investment from China for political reasons, way before the "but China is unfair for not allowing access into their markets" started.
- vlovich123 6y ago
  Proof? They still require joint partnerships [1] and IP transfer in high tech industries. Sure they don’t require it in others where they’ve already built up domestic competitors and obtained all the IP they need (ie manufacturing). Granted maybe you have updated information here so open to reading about it. Claiming that “but western countries do it too” is unhelpful whataboutism. I didn’t claim Western countries don’t do crappy shit. In terms of market access and competition, that shiftiness is more about established players and regulatory capture rather than outright pseudo-fascism whereas China seems to have adopted fascism quite aggressively (ironic considering they call themselves a socialist party but I guess all authoritarian regimes end up looking very similar). Saying “I see western logos when I walk around in China” is missing the mark when I talk about what is required of companies when they enter China (and as I said not all industries, but the ones strategically important to China somehow, especially high tech) [1] http://voxchina.org/show-3-115.html http://voxchina.org/show-3-115.html

AzzieElbab 6y ago

It is not about morality or who says what. Can’t have billions of international users accepting Chinas censorship

gizmo385 6y ago
So the alternative is to instead impose US censorship? How is that any better?
- 13415 6y ago
  It's not a bad idea to principally ban social networks that exercise government censorship on their users. I don't know if TikTok does that. Do they? The problem is also that what one country regards as political censorship another country just considers the application of reasonable laws. However, in the case of China that's such an obvious lame excuse - I mean, they literally interrupt phone calls in which people use certain terms.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]