4 ms·

The test itself is very well done - they try to get people to respond precisely, but checking attention, and asking multiple times questions about the same conc

The test itself is very well done - they try to get people to respond precisely, but checking attention, and asking multiple times questions about the same concept. However, the article has a very fundamental flaw: > Unfortunately, most people with extreme levels of dark personality traits don’t want to change who they are. Despite not being particularly happy with their lives The test doesn't deal with "happiness" at all, which is a key component of the argument. If consider as example a person like Steve Jobs, who would fair very high on narcisissm and machiavellism, what would be his happiness? While he could have been as much successful being a nice person (there are examples in history, my favorite being Carmack), what does represent happiness for him, from the perspective of other people, and from his own? Probably, from his own perspective, he's a "happy" person - he craves attention and success, and he satisfies both. I think defining happiness in a more general sense requires a certain "wider" personality, which this type of people doesn't have - ultimately, they're very narrow. Generalizing this example, the argument "Despite not being particularly happy with their lives" doesn't really hold - this type of ferociously and single-mindedly driven people are ultimately succeeding in their own, narrow, purpose.

bumby 6y ago
I've found Daniel Khaneman's definition of happiness being useful here. He divides happiness into two parts: a "experiential" happiness and a "reflecting" happiness. For the sake of the discussion and acknowledging I have zero insight into his personality, someone like Steve Jobs could be low in "experiential" happiness (seemingly endlessly frustrated in the present moment) and high on the "reflecting" happiness ("look at all the great, transformational things I've brought to the world")
- mcguire 6y ago
  What is his evidence for "reflecting" happiness?
  - bumby 6y ago
    Essentially your memories after the moment has past. I heard Steve Rinella talking about this as it relates to hunting. He spoke about how there's some trips where you're miserable in the moment (cold, bug-bitten) but when it's all over you have fond memories of the experience and consider it worthwhile. If you mean specific to Jobs, I don't have any and was just trying to relate to the OP comment, which is why I couched it with the caveat that I have no insight into his psychology. Maybe he generally was happy during the moment and maybe he was actually miserable when reflecting on his life, I have no idea.
- mewpmewp2 6y ago
  If happiness is the ultimate goal should we work on finding something like heroin, but without tolerance build up and withdrawals?
  - bumby 6y ago
    Maybe, but I don’t know that is a good assumption because that experiential happiness is, by definition, fleeting. That reflecting fulfilling memory lasts longer and I don’t that is maximized under that assumption
    - mewpmewp2 6y ago
      If you find a drug or way to alter a person's chemistry, you could maximize both.
      - bumby 6y ago
        Altering a person's chemistry is exactly what a drug does, so I may be missing what you're trying to illuminate here. "Could" there be a drug that makes people both experientially more happy and more industrious to the point where they have more reflecting happiness? Sure, but there could also be drugs that cure cancer and make us smarter at the same time too, I just don't have any pragmatic reason to believe we'll see one anytime soon because I suspect they work on very different mechanisms
kjlkjoxcvxch 6y ago
Using a throwaway for obvious reasons. I've been diagnosed as having narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) by several doctors so maybe I can shed some light on this. NPD is the inability to generate and/or experience internal validation. It is the lack of internal voice saying "good job". NPD is not self-aggrandizement although that is a common coping mechanism used to deal with the underlying disorder. I don't think I'm some sort of minor deity, but I'm also told by my doctors that I'm considerably more introspective than the typical narcissist (the irony of my docs being a source of praise is not lost on me). Because I do not have an internal source of validation I seek out validation and praise from others to fill the void. Psychiatrists call these sources of validation "narcissistic supply". That supply is a finite resource, eventually I either exhaust or build up a tolerance to the individual / group supplying the validation which causes me to seek out new sources. Some people have compared it to an addict trying to find their fix, a metaphor I find distasteful since it does people suffering from addiction a disservice. In this way I don't think I can be happy because I cannot remain satisfied. Sometimes I feel good, but I understand that no matter what I do, success I achieve, or people I help it will never be enough. I have a hard time staying still because I know that whatever source of supply I'm currently tapping will eventually run dry. It's a rather restless experience.
- adrian_mrd 6y ago
  Thanks for sharing your experiences of being diagnosed with NPD. I was wondering what made you get referred to the ‘several doctors’ in the first instance, and what treatments did they recommend to help manage your NPD?
- frongpik 6y ago
  I also use throwaways, but to give unpopular advice. I'd say that youre probably alright, but your state indicates an objective reality which is wasting time on things deemed pointless by your ego or soul, whatever you call it. Whenever we engage in such pointless activities, e.g. chasing money, our egos lose interest that feels as the unexplainable loss of life satisfaction. Activities that are deemed important by our egos are usually considered unimportant by our today's society's. The famous example is meditation: it seems meaningless, but for whatever reason it instantly brings the ego's attention and that feels as an unexplainable satisfaction in achieving something important, even though you can't explain whats being achieved. It's like lighting up an internal candle. Other activities are research of certain usually abstract topics, but also giving to others (not just money, but also time or knowledge). I'd recommend studying the bright side of occultism, and start with a short essay called "light on the path" (and to dodge the wrath of the orthodox HN community, I'm using a throwaway account). That essay has a few important references that will eventually lead you to less known books by Plato, Newton and many others. You'll laugh at the idea that Plato was just a philosopher. By that time you wont have lack of internal self validation.

bumby 6y ago

I've found Daniel Khaneman's definition of happiness being useful here. He divides happiness into two parts: a "experiential" happiness and a "reflecting" happiness. For the sake of the discussion and acknowledging I have zero insight into his personality, someone like Steve Jobs could be low in "experiential" happiness (seemingly endlessly frustrated in the present moment) and high on the "reflecting" happiness ("look at all the great, transformational things I've brought to the world")

mcguire 6y ago
What is his evidence for "reflecting" happiness?
- bumby 6y ago
  Essentially your memories after the moment has past. I heard Steve Rinella talking about this as it relates to hunting. He spoke about how there's some trips where you're miserable in the moment (cold, bug-bitten) but when it's all over you have fond memories of the experience and consider it worthwhile. If you mean specific to Jobs, I don't have any and was just trying to relate to the OP comment, which is why I couched it with the caveat that I have no insight into his psychology. Maybe he generally was happy during the moment and maybe he was actually miserable when reflecting on his life, I have no idea.
mewpmewp2 6y ago
If happiness is the ultimate goal should we work on finding something like heroin, but without tolerance build up and withdrawals?
- bumby 6y ago
  Maybe, but I don’t know that is a good assumption because that experiential happiness is, by definition, fleeting. That reflecting fulfilling memory lasts longer and I don’t that is maximized under that assumption
  - mewpmewp2 6y ago
    If you find a drug or way to alter a person's chemistry, you could maximize both.
    - bumby 6y ago
      Altering a person's chemistry is exactly what a drug does, so I may be missing what you're trying to illuminate here. "Could" there be a drug that makes people both experientially more happy and more industrious to the point where they have more reflecting happiness? Sure, but there could also be drugs that cure cancer and make us smarter at the same time too, I just don't have any pragmatic reason to believe we'll see one anytime soon because I suspect they work on very different mechanisms

kjlkjoxcvxch 6y ago

Using a throwaway for obvious reasons. I've been diagnosed as having narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) by several doctors so maybe I can shed some light on this. NPD is the inability to generate and/or experience internal validation. It is the lack of internal voice saying "good job". NPD is not self-aggrandizement although that is a common coping mechanism used to deal with the underlying disorder. I don't think I'm some sort of minor deity, but I'm also told by my doctors that I'm considerably more introspective than the typical narcissist (the irony of my docs being a source of praise is not lost on me). Because I do not have an internal source of validation I seek out validation and praise from others to fill the void. Psychiatrists call these sources of validation "narcissistic supply". That supply is a finite resource, eventually I either exhaust or build up a tolerance to the individual / group supplying the validation which causes me to seek out new sources. Some people have compared it to an addict trying to find their fix, a metaphor I find distasteful since it does people suffering from addiction a disservice. In this way I don't think I can be happy because I cannot remain satisfied. Sometimes I feel good, but I understand that no matter what I do, success I achieve, or people I help it will never be enough. I have a hard time staying still because I know that whatever source of supply I'm currently tapping will eventually run dry. It's a rather restless experience.

adrian_mrd 6y ago
Thanks for sharing your experiences of being diagnosed with NPD. I was wondering what made you get referred to the ‘several doctors’ in the first instance, and what treatments did they recommend to help manage your NPD?
frongpik 6y ago
I also use throwaways, but to give unpopular advice. I'd say that youre probably alright, but your state indicates an objective reality which is wasting time on things deemed pointless by your ego or soul, whatever you call it. Whenever we engage in such pointless activities, e.g. chasing money, our egos lose interest that feels as the unexplainable loss of life satisfaction. Activities that are deemed important by our egos are usually considered unimportant by our today's society's. The famous example is meditation: it seems meaningless, but for whatever reason it instantly brings the ego's attention and that feels as an unexplainable satisfaction in achieving something important, even though you can't explain whats being achieved. It's like lighting up an internal candle. Other activities are research of certain usually abstract topics, but also giving to others (not just money, but also time or knowledge). I'd recommend studying the bright side of occultism, and start with a short essay called "light on the path" (and to dodge the wrath of the orthodox HN community, I'm using a throwaway account). That essay has a few important references that will eventually lead you to less known books by Plato, Newton and many others. You'll laugh at the idea that Plato was just a philosopher. By that time you wont have lack of internal self validation.